Lion - stalk vs. bait

[billc]

How anything is labeled wrong because some dont agree with it just baffles me.It is not for everyone and we all know that.Could it been done in some better ways you bet.Hunters making this a big issue are not helping hunting in anyway.You can say it is your belief it should not be done but when you put it down your hurting hunting.You may not be naming names or making fun of one hunter but you are making it a point to say anyone who did this kind of hunt is not a hunter.In your eyes maybe there not but to thousands of others it is ok and looked at as a hunt.In a perfect world we could all hunt the old unfenced africa but we all know we dont live in that perfect world.If the trophys that myself and son have taken in SA are not trophys because they lived behind fence you miss some of the must basic points of what hunting is for alot of people.

 

[shakari]

Jaco,

I agree that lion quotas may well be cut but I personally don't see how that will achieve anything at all any more than shooting captive bred lions in RSA would affect wild lion populations because the problem with declining wild lion populations isn't anything to do with hunting. It's to do with human encroachment, poaching and illegal killing of lions by indigenous people such as the Masai etc who kill them to protect their cattle....... and that opens another whole can of worms.

Personally, I'd like to see all captive lion breeding banned throughout the continent but if that can't happen (and I appreciate it won't) then an extensive wilding period is better than nothing but we both know it's totally unenforceable with the Govt as it is. We also know that Govt will get considerably worse as years go by.

As for what I'm doing...... I thought it was common knowledge that I retired from the African hunting field 2 or 3 years ago. I'm pushing 60 now and have a buggered hip and arthritis in a variety of joints. Some caused by too much walking after things like buffalo, some by old, long forgotten motorcycle accidents and some simply by age etc.

We still keep the hunting info website going and one our current building project is finished, I'm hoping to be able to get back to doing some more writing.

My sig line on another forum says I'm retired etc and I thought this did too but apparently not...... I'll try to suss it out and put something on there.

 

[shakari]

Bill,

Anyone who shoots such a lion isn't hunting it, they're simply shooting it and therefore the act isn't a hunt it's a shoot and therefore they're not hunters, they're shooters. Simple.

I'm not labelling it wrong because I don't agree with it, I'm labelling it wrong because it's unethical and there's a subtle but vitally important difference. I further believe that the practice will and does damage real African sport trophy hunting and I care that the next generation will get to enjoy at least part of what I have..... and incidentally, I'm willing to bet that most African hunters agree with me........ LOL

Let's remember the old quote that came from Burke (IIRC) that says somethin like; 'All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing'

Jaco

Going back to what I'm doing, I just checked my profile and it's all there but I don't seem to be able to work out how to add a sig line so you'll just have to read my profile...... sorry about that!

 

[spike.t]

steve if you want to set up a signature go to your notifications in box and its on the left side of the page.

 

[Adrian]

Forgive the naive question but when a hunter pays to shoot a lion within a fence, how many lions are on the ground?

Is a single lion released for the purposes of that hunter or are there more than one within that area?

Can someone explain how these things work please?

 

[shakari]

Spike

Thanks buddy....... think I've done it now.

Adrian

The most common practice is to have the lion in an enclosure then separate it from any others, dart it, translocate it to the new area give it the antidote, bugger off quick and then the shooter comes in a few hours or at most a day or two later to shoot it....... hours are more common that days and don't for a moment think the practice is only restricted to RSA because it isn't.

ADDED

Thanks Spike. It worked!

 

[Norwegianwoods]

Yes Pieter, 100% correct about the Rhino horn. At this stage a dead Rhino is worth more to the owner than when its alive.
Should they legalize trade, this will allow owners to harvest the horns surgically from their own animals. Flogging the market from the South African Reserves will no doubt affect the price. Once we can get the risk of poaching to be higher than the reward, it will be a step in the right direction.

I totally agree on this.
I think the only thing that can save the wild rhinos in the long run is to make it legal to harvest the horns and sell them from alive captive rhinos.
That way, the poaching of rhinos will totally or almost totally stop as there would not be enough money to earn from it considering the risk.

When it comes to breeding lions for hunters to shoot, I think the only liable option to do so in the long run, is to implement a 6 months or longer period where the lion should live inside a hunting enclosure and killing its own food before it would be legal to hunt.
Maybe it is to much to ask that the people that shall upheld the law in SA, make sure this is followed.

Then they should increase the price for the lion hunt accordingly to how much it really cost the landowner to have the lion on that property killing his/her PGs during the 6 months period or longer.

Lion hunting doesn't need to be for everyone.
Let the people with lots of money hunt "wild" lions instead of making it possible for almost everyone to shoot a lion released a day or 3 before it gets shot.

 

[Adrian]

Adrian

The most common practice is to have the lion in an enclosure then separate it from any others, dart it, translocate it to the new area give it the antidote, bugger off quick and then the shooter comes in a few hours or at most a day or two later to shoot it....... hours are more common that days and don't for a moment think the practice is only restricted to RSA because it isn't.

Thank you for clarifying Steve. I had a good idea this is how it was done but didn't know if it was the exception the media like to press upon everyone or if there was another way.

 

[shakari]

Norwegianwoods

The problem with higher prices and longer wilding periods is the hunt would have to sell for something in the region of US$50K and for that, you can have a proper wild lion hunt and of course, it's also a massive temptation for the outfitter to ignore the wilding period (which can't be checked or monitored) and then release the lion the day before the hunter arrives and pocket the difference in costs.......as the money involved is considerable, it's a big temptation and bound to happen at least from time to time.

Adrian

Other than the areas that are immediately adjacent to the national parks, that's pretty much the way it happens on virtually all RSA lion hunts.

The ones near the parks are a lot more like a proper hunt and the animals are usually born and raised etc in the wild but they're not really the same as a lion hunt in an area such as the SGR in Tanzania because the animals are habituated to man and vehicles....... that doesn't necessarily make them less dangerous and indeed the opposite might be argued but it does make them behave differently to a truly wild lion.

 

[peras]

In the Northwest province the lion gets released 96 hours before the hunt,and nature conservation does spot checks on this(they actually do,I experienced it).

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Marius

The reason I win is as I said: No matter how you dress it up or try to cloud the issue, this practice is disgracefully wrong and if it's wrong, it ain't right and it never will be.

Which is why the pro canned lion shooting side of the debate refuse to answer the simply question; Do you think it's ethical to shoot a newly release lion etc?

Simple really.

And what's more I believe I have every right to state my opinion & if I prevent just one person from shooting such a lion in my entire lifetime, it'll have been well worth the effort I've gone to by repeatedly stating my opinion.

And quite frankly, I don't care whose noses I put out of joint by stating that opinion.

Oh & incidentally. I've never bad mouthed another hunter in my life........ I have however stated the truth as I've seen it & criticised a good many unethical practices & people who partake of those unrthical practices......... I also try to have the good manners & good taste not to name individuals involved in those unethical practices.

Those people who do support the unethical practices actually identify themselves by arguing an indefensible practice.

Again, simple really!

But in fact you have, with respect to the part in bold. It may have not been your intention, but you have insulted people here. You've said in this thread that anyone who goes on such a hunt is not a hunter but a shooter and an unethical one at that. Do you realize there are members of AH who have been on these hunts? Do you realize there are members of AH who giving thought to one of these at this moment? And these are people you've never met. You don't know who they are or what their ethical standards are and yet you're prepared on this one issue to strip them of being "real" hunters and proclaim them unethical.

I cannot think of any non-African in this world that has done more for hunting in general terms and specifically for African hunting than Craig Boddington. I had the pleasure of attending a seminar he gave on lion hunting at the 2011 SCI Convention. In that seminar he covered the hunting of raised lions. And while I don't remember the exact words he used it was along the lines of "It's not something I (CB) am interested in doing, but it has it's place in the hunting world and I don't have a problem with those who want to pursue this option."

Another rising face in the hunting world is Mr. Aaron Nielson, who has killed numerous lions and is currently very active from what I can see in the fight to preserve wild lion hunting and the conservation of wild lions. I have seen posts where he has no problem with the raised lion hunts with the stipulation that they not be "sold" as wild lion hunts, that the providers of those hunts be up front and honest about what it is.

Do you really expect me to believe that neither of these gentlemen are not hunters and void of ethical standards?

This is the type of language that concerns me. It causes division within the hunting community. Yes you certainly have the right to express your opinion, but with that right I believe also comes a responsibility in the exercise of that right. With all due respect Shakari, your latest posts are divisive and you seem quite proud of the fact that you're knocking "noses out of joint."

Do you realize your posts here on an open internet forum are not made in a vacuum? Do you have any idea how many lurkers there are reading this thread and what the impact of the tone of your posts may be? You say if you keep someone from going on one of these hunts then you feel vindicated. But do you realize how elitist you are coming off to others? Do you realize how many potentional new members of the African hunting community are out there that are driven away when they feel there's some sort of arbitrary standard that they must meet to be "one of us?" How would you feel if that drove a potential new member away from this website and subsequently away from hunting in Africa? What does that do for trophy sport hunting in Africa?

I'm not asking you to change your opinion Shakari and I'm sure as hell not trying to win an argument. But there are other opinions on this matter, some from inexperienced people and some from those with just as much credibility as yours. All I'm asking is you respectfully disagree with those and drop the tacit if not direct insults.

As far as ending the hunting of raise lions goes, if that's your goal, I would argue the solution is quite obvious. Reverse the decline of the wild lion population, get the numbers back to where they once were. Or at least to the point that the supply meets or exceeds the hunting demand. This will in turn bring down the ridiculously high prices of these hunts and thus remove the demand for the RSA lion hunts. Your rage against the RSA lion hunts and fighting them directly is a fight against the symptom, I think we need to fight the disease.

 

[shakari]

Phil

you're missing those subtle differences I mentioned. I haven't insulted individuals but I have said what I think of people who partake of this practice. Actually, I've been very polite about that. You certainly wouldn't want to hear my real opinion! However, if individuals think the cap fits and my description applies to them then that's their problem not mine.

I've met CB a few times and communicated with him a fair bit and have read his opinions on captive bred lions many times but that doesn't make him right and me wrong. It just means we disagree. He has his opinion and i have mine. The fact that we disagree on the issue won't ever stop me buying him a beer and enjoying his company etc.

Do I know my comments on this are likely to be monitored by others (including antis)? ...... yes I do and what's more, I don't care a fig. If something is wrong, you can't ever make it right by hiding it....... It isn't my comments that are wrong, it's the practice of shooting captive bred lions that's wrong. The way to cure it isn't for me to stop my fight against the abhorrant practice, it's for people to stop marketing & shooting lions that don't know which way is up!!!!!!

The last thing I am is elitist....... what I am is an honest man debating against unethical practices and as I've said, I donï½´t care how many noses I put out of joint during that debate.

You also accuse me of attacking the RSA lion shooting industry...... and you're wrong in that as well. What I'm doing is attacking the shooting of captive bred lions and if you think that practice is restricted to RSA alone, you're very wrong. It also happens in several other African countries.

As to your idea of improving the populations of wild lions: Good luck with that one........ There's not a hope in hell you or the collective world and his dog will ever stop Afs killing lions at any and every opportunity and by any and all means possible..... Nor will you ever stop them breeding and encroaching on wilderness areas and that's the two biggest causes of the decline.

 

[Mtgoat]

I (unfortunately) started this thread. I have two things to say.

Phoenix Phil - you are spot on my friend!!!

I think that this discussion has reached the point that it is time to shut down this thread. As Phil said, it just gives aid and comfort to the antis. So, let's give this topic a rest - please.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Sorry Steve seems like everyone is missing every post you have posted, for one I am done with this subject....

As an fyi i sent a client home this year on a lion hunt in Moz with multiple but younger than 6 year old males on various baits, this takes balls I tell you..... if you did not know he had in his words a great safari....(Mr pantelidis a Dr from Ohio) and yet had to cover 30+k in daily rates.... very few big guides i know would have done the same.....

The following week i hunted a lion in the kalahari with a different hunter and we got the male on the third day..........

My ethics i should say should be beyond question should you not agree, i will get both clients to post on this thread as soon as I am able.

.mt goat it is not legal to bait lion in north west as far as my knowledge goes, a free roaming hunt is also an absolutely awesome experience, go with a reputable outfitter, either way and you'll have a great time..

My best always

 

[shakari]

Jaco

I've also sent clients home without their trophies & am not at all ashamed of that. I'd much rather do that than send him home with a trophy that he took unfairly or unethically.

Many years ago, I was posting (elsewhere) on this very same subject & I received an email from the then President of a certain PH assoc (politely) asking me to shut the hell up & I (equally politely) told him to go forth & multiply & he should be trying to stop what was wrong instead of trying to stop me exposing it.......... I'm glad to say he replied that actually, I had a good point & he did indeed try to do something....... Covering something up won't ever make it right if it's wrong, it'll never be right.

The last few posts are a tacit admission that I am right but that you prefer to try to hide the practice rather than put it right & that gentlemen is what's wrong with the industry nowadays & also why I'm bloody glad to be retired & away from all that hypocracy.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

No think you missed exactly what i was trying to say

 

[shakari]

No think you missed exactly what i was trying to say

I don't think so mate. LOL!

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Adrian

The most common practice is to have the lion in an enclosure then separate it from any others, dart it, translocate it to the new area give it the antidote, bugger off quick and then the shooter comes in a few hours or at most a day or two later to shoot it....... hours are more common that days and don't for a moment think the practice is only restricted to RSA because it isn't.

No wonder you carry on the way you do, if you believe that all SA lion hunts work like this.

 

[Adrian]

No wonder you carry on the way you do, if you believe that all SA lion hunts work like this.

Can you explain any other methods Marius as I am curious to learn more about it and I dare say many others are too but are worried about stepping into the.... ahem.... lions den........?

 

[shakari]

The vast majority of captive bred lion hunts are pretty much as I described or a variation of such & very few indeed (if any) that have any kind of significant wilding period at all & before anyone gets their knickers in a twist about my blowing the gaffe instead of being all secret squirrel just bear in mind that you tube is chokka block with soppy videos that show what a super mega bugly stuff up these shoots are and the antis have more than enough of those tucked away already.