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Deciding on Guns for First Safari

This is a discussion on Deciding on Guns for First Safari within the Firearms & Ammunition forums, part of the HUNTING EQUIPMENT, FIREARMS & AMMUNITION category; Originally Posted by AkMike I have a top if the line Winkler DR (Ferlach, Austria)in 300 H&H. . From which ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AkMike View Post
    I have a top if the line Winkler DR (Ferlach, Austria)in 300 H&H. .
    From which one , Josef or Benedikt Winkler ?

    Mannlicher

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    Joesf Winkler was the maker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AkMike View Post
    Joesf Winkler was the maker.
    I am also owning one from Josef Winkler ( Böhler Antinit steel ) - combination gun 16/70 - 6,5x57 R and shot barrels 20/70 - 20/70 from 1963 .

    Mannlicher

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    "]Can't help but look at the common sense of the issue. If you want to pay 39K for a .458 go ahead but I will say this once, I would never do it. Buy a .470 NE or one of the .450 and go hunt with a Heym or something, use the extra money TO DO MORE HUNTING AND SHOOTING. Problem solved. Shot placement is everything, power does not make up for bad shot placement."
    ________________________________


    _______

    Exactly, and I couldn't have said it any better---I wouldn't do it either, for if I did, we both would be making mistake---that is my opinion, folks, so don't get upset. Doing what enysse suggests, would eliminate any potential problems that may rise up with using .458 cartridge in double rifle, which it wasn't designed for, especially if used in extreme African heat.


    "Plenty of elephants were killed with 7x57 back in the day"

    Yes, but those days are long gone, and they were done by chaps with 7x57 which were second nature to them; they shot more in one week than most guys now do in a year, or something like that anyway.

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    "Saul mentioned the availability of low cost ammo for this 458." Why spend around $40,000 on a rifle, yet be concerned about price of ammo? If you have your heart set on a best quality rifle, buy an English or German double rifle; not an Italian or French one, though they are all great. An English one, or a German/Austrian one, will hold its value far better over time, than will an Italian or French one, though they are all good rifles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubleriflejack View Post
    " If you have your heart set on a best quality rifle, buy an English or German double rifle; not an Italian or French one, though they are all great. An English one, or a German/Austrian one, will hold its value far better over time, than will an Italian or French one, though they are all good rifles.
    sorry dont agree.....buy what you want, what feels right for you, what you like and what you will enjoy using. if i had used those sentiments when it came to buying cars when i was a lot younger i would never have had fun with the odd italian exotic, mind you the english and german ones were/still are fun... to me if you can afford it and like it/want it go for it...as you only get one go at this

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    DRJack is referring to the resale later on I'm pretty sure. These Fr. and Ita. rifle will work just fine but they don't hold the value later on Spike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AkMike View Post
    DRJack is referring to the resale later on I'm pretty sure. These Fr. and Ita. rifle will work just fine but they don't hold the value later on Spike.
    mike i know that, but the point i was trying to make is it would be a pretty boring place if everyone only thought of resale value for any type of grown up toy, which guns and cars etc are in a way. as i said if people can afford it and like it/want it go for it

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    Everyone is making a lot of good points. I'm looking at the Searcy doubles and they are pretty nice. When I said I like the ability to shoot .458 Lott because of availability, I was thinking that it would be a lot easier to find and practice with. I definitely understand the need for reliability on a hunt, but don't you think (I don't know, you guys are the Africa experts) that if you are being attacked by a charging animal, you won't have time to reload a double rifle. Plus, your PH is there for a reason. If I don't end up getting Perugini & Visini, then I'll probably get a searcy or Heym in either .470 or
    .500 NE. I'm not sure yet. On another note, what are the virtues of the .577 NE? The rifles I've seem in the caliber are are around 11.5 pounds, which is way to heavy. The .600 NE and Overkill are almost 13 lbs. Is there any reason why a PH or hunter would choose one of these guns over a .500 NE which I found in only 10.5 lb. guns? Plus, does anyone know what caliber Ivan Carter shoots? Someone told me that he shoots a .600 Overkill. The .577 NE was Eenest Hemingways favorite caliber. Just wondering about this.

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    I own a .458 Win, that's enough for me. I honestly don't think it's practical to shoot anything over a 500NE. If you shoot a 500 NE well, you are set for any game animal. Heck the .416 Rem or Rigby is A LOT.

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    With a bit of practice you can get 4 aimed shots off with DR faster than a bolt rifle. Fact!

    The 600 NE DR that I've shot was closer to 15-16 pounds of weight. A 450-470 should be just a bit under 11# IMO.
    You should try to get some trigger time on DR's before you 'pull the trigger' on a deal to buy one.

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    Here is a video from Todd W. showing how the speed of these compares.


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    Quote Originally Posted by AkMike View Post
    With a bit of practice you can get 4 aimed shots off with DR faster than a bolt rifle. Fact!

    The 600 NE DR that I've shot was closer to 15-16 pounds of weight. A 450-470 should be just a bit under 11# IMO.
    You should try to get some trigger time on DR's before you 'pull the trigger' on a deal to buy one.
    I wouldn't disagree with your statement. If anyone practices long enough with one weapon they are going to be quick. I only own bolt actions, mainly because I like cheap guns. There is nothing wrong with buying a double. My two cents though is anything over .500 NE is overkill, you are not going to practice a lot with the gun, between the foot pounds of energy and costs...I think most people will regret it. To the people that love and own many doubles, why not own something huge you can always back down to something else, but if you own one double,well your hands are tied.

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    LMAO!!!
    Define "Overkill!"

    How much deader than dead can it get???

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    Ah come on Mike. Now you are just picking at a way to disagree. I think we would all concede that a .375 solid and a .600 solid will both decisively terminate an engagement with an elephant. I think we can all agree that could be accomplished with either a bolt action or double (yes, even with tabs to grab the rims). Everything after that is preference and trade-offs. As enysse says, dragging around a 14 - 16 pound rifle is more than is necessary to kill an elephant. It doesn't mean it won't work - indeed it likely would work "better" at the point of engagement than the .375. But so would a .50 BMG. My decision would be made based upon the hunting situation. In the Caprivi or Botswana, with high concentrations and relative more riding than hiking, a great old .577 would be a fun choice. In Zim, where I would be much more likely to have to truly walk an elephant down then I would not burden myself with such a heavy weapon. As I mentioned above, I am deliberately choosing my .375 double over my .416/500 for my next buff hunt because of the nature of that hunt. The .416 is a "better" buffalo round (at least on paper), but it is not necessary (overkill), and is not in the ideal platform for this particular hunt. You might run that math differently and come up with a different solution - and you would be correct - for you. But I assure you others can read enysse's comments and not "LMAO".
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    Thanks Red Leg, that pretty much sums up my feelings.

    AkMike, you sound like someone that can handle any caliber with ease or practice. In my experience that is the opposite of most people. And with the new technology we have today you can be far effect than years ago. Barnes Solids, CEB, North Fork, etc. combined with modern powder is very deadly. Proper shot placement is everything. You are right there is no such thing as overkill but the physics and science of things says there is a diminishing return. And I see shot placement suffer when we shoot more than we technically need. Heavy rifles fatigue most people too.

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    It seems that my LMAO was taken somewhat wrong, I apologize.
    That lead me into the overkill statement. I contend that there is no such thing as overkill. It's a myth! Dead is dead and it doesn't matter if even a squirrel is killed with a .22 or a .600, it's dead.
    Now 'underkill' is a word that should be used much more if anything.

    Yes bigger rifle are and should be heavier that smaller calibers. But rather than shedding weight from the rifles most guys should consider shedding a few pounds them selves.

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    Wow, everyone got set off pretty quickly by the word overkill. I was actually referring to the cartridge known as the .600 Overkill, because I think I remember Ivan Carter using it. Anyway, if I do get a rimmed cartridge, which one? I like the .450 and .470 rifles, but as a huge Earnest Hemingway fan, I am partial to the .577 NE. I was thinking that maybe a Heym in .500 NE would be the perfect balance between the .470 and the .577, without being ridiculously heavy or high recoil. What do you guys think of this? Is there a reason to take the .450 or .470 rifle or on the other end of the spectrum the .577 NE, or is the .500 a perfect balance? If the .577 was a good choice, I'd buy one in a heartbeat for sheer nostalgiac value. Anyway, I definitely will practice with whichever gun I do end up getting. So, the basic question is, which of these calibers is best for lion and elephant, and from which manufacturer should I get it from. Also, is it better than the P&V .458, because I have handled and shot that gun, and not only does it for me like a glove, but I can handle it very well.

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    If you want the best (IMO) Searcy has a fine 577 ready to go right now if it will fit you.
    The other top brands are probably as good based on the popularity of sales. VC, Heym, Merkel ect.
    I've got a 450 Searcy so I am biased. I have shot other brands and almost all are fine shooting rifles but the Searcy seems to fit me the best for present day manufacturers.

    for_sale

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    I would go check some guns in person, get fitted and then chose a caliber you are comfortable with.

    I'm glad you were joking AkMike, no hard feelings . I agree being in shape would help out a lot, especially if you are going to walk down a elephant.
    "Under kill" interesting, never thought of it that way, but I will now, lol.

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