Why certain species?

I agree about the hijacking...I am terrribly apologetic Fritz.

I hope I do not appear to be some imposing butthead (not my intention). My point is simply that we must each hunt for ourselves. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happy can can come in many shapes and sizes. As it is, we all spend too much time worrying about the other guy. Life is way too short for any of that!

We can do it right by not flaunting our craft. We can share with those around us. And, we can continue to learn and teach with the utmost respect for both people and wildlife. When we do these things, our sport will be enduring. Personally, I would rather have any hunter join our ranks, take to the field, and complete the journey. I will pat him on the back when he does...regardless of the degree of difficulty or inches involved.

And yeah Bjorn, fair really isn't fair. One only needs to carry/assist a fellow hunter to a stand to realize this.

This topic keeps getting off track. Texas exotics were never under fire, the discussion was put and take Whitetail/Elk ranches which fall squarely outside SCIs fair chase rules. I think we all are on the same page with regards to the other operations mentioned as well as any other self sustaining populations of any species of animal.

Lets just agree that we actually agreed all along LOL.

My appologies to Fritz as well, Im sure he never knew the debate his post would spawn. LOL

Sorry, but I never claimed to have ever killed a world record kudu. What you probably read was a post I made on another forum that I had killed a waterbuck that was larger then the world record. I don't personally believe in record books though I am an official measurer for SCI and a life member of SCI. As the owner of a safari company in Africa I can state emphatically that many a great hunt has been ruined by the need to shoot only record book game.

Ken Moody

My apologies for the lack of specific memory Ken. I read the piece many years in the past. Nonetheless, your words did cause me to look differently at SCI and record books. One would hate to think, in this day and age, $35 could/would be the difference between winning and losing a lawsuit over a hunting issue. Sadly, every penny counts-as you may well know. We have more to gain by entries than we have to lose, but each his own I guess.

I'm just a down to earth guy, I can state emphatically that many a great hunt have not been ruined by the need to shoot only record book game. I like Diamond appreciate the journey.

Welcome to the site. I look forward to hearing more from you.

Well, when you've dealt with thousands of clients as I have you may have a different outlook. Many use record books to some how validate their manhood which is, IMO, ridiculous. Others quit hunting and simply begin collecting, needing this or that species to qualify for this or that level, slam, etc., etc. Record books are money making businesses and nothing is truer than that at SCI. They derive much money from their record book which is why their standards for entry are so low. The more entries the more money. When you have to buy yourself into a record book what is the significance? To me animals are not trophies they are living, breathing creatures and to be given the privaledge to hunt them is something we should all cherish. Their lives should mean something more than the sum total of horn measurements. I have many, many mounts in my home and they all represent for me a special memory of a good time afield not a ranking in some sort of book. If record books were kept in the spirit of good fun and hunting comraderie then I would support them 100% but sadly, many do not view them as anything more than a self promotion tool which turn the quarry into nothing more than a mathmetical calculation. When you see a "hunter" and guide work their butts off on a hunt and shoot a hard won animal and the first thing the client does is pull out a measuring tape then WTF were you hunting for in the first place. I have literally had a client throw a child like fit in the salt shed when his kudu bull measured out at 49 4/8 instead of 50". This can be the type of so called hunter that record books and record keeping breed. I've seen enough of them to make me ill. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from simply contributing an extra $35 to SCI. I promise you they will take it. You don't have to participate in a record book to help conservation. Again, if it's simply done in the name of good fun and conservation then I'm all in but in reality it usually is not.

Ken Moody

Excellent post Ken! Welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by TOM

Excellent post Ken! Welcome to the forum.

+1 and welcome Ken

Well, when you've dealt with thousands of clients as I have you may have a different outlook.

Ken, I have dealt with plenty. Why would you assume otherwise? Do you know me? Have we ever met?

Here's some insight. For the last 27 years-through my numerous camps-I have been annually exposed to between 30 and 50 hunters . These national and international gentlemen were not clients since I am not for hire. They have been predominantly skilled, self reliant, self regulating, and extremely disciplined do-it-yourselfers. In the capacity of guide, host, pack mule, or friend, I have been there for the pure sake of the hunt, the laughter, and the challenge of "being wild." In addition, I normally assist 50 to 100 good folk every year with various hunts around the World (at no charge). With that said, I can honestly say I have never experienced the things you describe above. Perhaps you are catering to an insecure clientele who time and time again pay for pleasure. Could it be they lack what it takes to successfully hunt on their own? Thus, any sense of manhood is better than none. One can only surmise...

Many use record books to some how validate their manhood which is, IMO, ridiculous.

Many of us use the record books as a means to highlight and propagate wildlife which is, IMO not ridiculous. The simple fact that records continue to be broken is indicative of a system working-well! Is wildlife more worldly abundant? Yes! Is wildlife healthier? Yes! Are there more opportunities for hunters? YES! Can hunting as we know it endure? YES! Manhood indeed. I am thankful some incredibly good men had the fortitude to get us where we are!

You say, "Others quit hunting and simply begin collecting, needing this or that species to qualify for this or that level, slam, etc. etc." I have to ask, did they quit hunting, or did the quit hunting according to your ideology? If one saves, plans, and executes the pre-meditated demise of an animal he seeks, then he is not hunting? How absurd! Why he hunts is his own business! Unless, of course, you would care to define hunting for all of us.

I can only imagine how awesome it would be if Mr. Adams paid us a visit. He could reminisced about when he quit hunting and began collecting the animals for his Super Slam. He has 188 record book entries, by the way. The man is as pompous as they come, NOT!

Record books are money making businesses and nothing is truer than that at SCI. They derive much money from their record book which is why their standards for entry are so low.

Anti-hunting organizations are money making businesses. They derive their money from people who think all of us should secure our meat from the stores where animals aren't injured. Honestly Ken (you too Tom), we see one cockamamie suit after another being argued on a daily basis! That's why EVERY penny counts! You cannot be that oblivious! Again, one only needs to look towards Europe and the numerous legal battles being waged elsewhere around the world...Australia, New Zealand, the US, Norway, etc. etc.

SCI is a non-profit (a little different than a "business") which pours every resource back into protecting the hunting privileges we have and expanding others. It is agonizing to me that you cannot see this!

The more entries the more money.

YEP!

When you have to buy yourself into a record book what is the significance?

It signifies that you care enough to keep a great thing going! You pray your record is broken-hopefully by one of your children! Then by one of their children...so on and so forth.

To me animals are not trophies they are living, breathing creatures and to be given the privilege to hunt them is something we should all cherish.

They are not living breathing creatures if they are hanging on your wall, right? I'm curious then. Why do you have them hanging on your wall if they are not trophies? Isn't that a bit hypocritical, or is it a play on words? I do agree with the privilege being cherished part

Their lives should mean something more than the sum total of horn measurements.

I'm sure they do. Mine do anyway. Many do not have horns to measure. Does that make me less of an egotist?

I have many, many mounts in my home and they all represent for me a special memory of a good time afield not a ranking in some sort of book.

Ken, wouldn't you like future generations to experience those good times and special memories as well? You see it as some sort of ranking. I see it as a win-win for hunters...past, present, and future.

If record books were kept in the spirit of good fun and hunting comraderie then I would support them 100% but sadly, many do not view them as anything more than a self promotion tool which turn the quarry into nothing more than a mathmetical calculation.

BS...I have nearly sixty "photo" entries bought and paid for through SCI's record book. Not one has a "mathematical calculation" associated with it! Those entries represent $1200 of good fun and hunting camaraderie...milestones, journeys, and much much more!

When you see a "hunter" and guide work their butts off on a hunt and shoot a hard won animal and the first thing the client does is pull out a measuring tape then WTF were you hunting for in the first place.

Hmmm...Perhaps he wanted to assess the space requirement for his newly acquired special memory and good time afield. If I were there, I would have offered assistance by selecting a hammer and saw. I would have helped him construct. I definitely would not have expected him to conform to my guiding principles. Why? because he's not me.

I have literally had a client throw a child like fit in the salt shed when his kudu bull measured out at 49 4/8 instead of 50". This can be the type of so called hunter that record books and record keeping breed.

Maybe so, but this can also be merely the John who was promised of a pleasant and personable experience by a person of hire. Again, one can only surmise. I'd be careful painting all hunters the same color.

I've seen enough of them to make me ill.

And you're e still in the business? If I were getting sick at work, I would quit.

Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from simply contributing an extra $35 to SCI. I promise you they will take it. You don't have to participate in a record book to help conservation.

I agree wholeheartedly, but how many people actually contribute? How many would rather do nothing...while sucking and gnawing on the very teat which keeps them alive? Most don't and most do respectively! Most look down their long noses and chastise us "swellheaded bastards" for doing what we feel is right-not for ourselves-but for everyone and everything. Let me ask you Ken, who has to endure the most ignominy? Is it the person who wants everyone to know they could have "a potential world record" or the guy who has actually achieved the world record?

Finally, I thank you for helping me get beyond the, "I coulda, but" phase of my life.

I agree with you second wind....it's about the hunt not the kill itself! Safari mean journey and therein lies the enjoyment. I also think there's a primal thing in action with hunting DG. Perhaps an inherited or inherent thing? The adrenaline rush is not to be ignored though. No matter how many you do, the rush is always there when it's close up and personal! Some find it in hunting and some find it in base jumping...as already said here, each to his own! The hunts last longer!!

No, I don't know you because you are hiding behind an internet handle. State your name so that all may know who you are. Additionally, if you are not a life member of SCI then please don't question my contributions to this great organization. I have given thousands upon thousands of dollars to SCI in hunt donations so let's not go there. You sound a bit self righteous and a little naive to me. Let me say again, I don't have any problem at all with record books. I hunt nearly 1000 clients annually and I measure many trophies each year for my clients and am myself a measurer for both SCI and ROE. All good guys and great clients who merely wish to officially record their animals and support SCI's conservation efforts. You may fall into this category yourself but again, no one knows who you are. Record books in themselves are nothing more than tools no more or less dangerous than the individual who wields them but, all too often they are a means to promote one's self not hunting or conservation. It is the need to shoot "book" animals that has directly, yes I said directly, caused the manipulation of wildlife thru captive breeding in order to produce record book heads. While these animals are nothing more than hormone induced science projects they are recordable in SCI for inclusion in their book. This "world gone mad" concept of artificial manipulation is not good for hunting in any way, shape or form. Genetically altered species that are scientifically bred for big racks or large horns are an abomination in my opinion. Test tube whitetails are all the norm on the high priced game ranches that specialize in providing their clients with record book specimens to kill. Were it not for the "book" these operations would have no end market for their creations and would go away. The same thing is occuring in South Africa with cape buffalo and other species. There is one bowhunting outfitter who actually darted and measured a kudu bull two years ago to see if it would out score Larry Jones' current world record before he purchased it. He bought the bull from a breeder who specializes in pen raising big kudu bulls. So now you have the potential new world record kudu bull available for anyone who wants to pay for it. Someone will, of course, so that they can have themselves recognized as the new holder of the world record. In South Africa so many large "trophies" are purchased from breeders and sold to record book enthusiasts that it is now commonplace. This is the underbelly and dark side of what record books can inspire. How can anyone participate in this practice and call themselves a hunter??? I appreciate all the good that SCI does and realize that their record book is simply a means to making more money but I also recognize the suspect and questionable wildlife practices that are also derived from inducing competition into the hunting industry. It's not all rosy and sweet smelling as some might believe.

Ken Moody

Yeah.....What 'dat guy Moody said goes double fer me too!

No, I don't know you because you are hiding behind an internet handle. State your name so that all may know who you are.

Why Ken? Would it change anything? I could have stated my name as Willie Nelson, Johnny Cash, or Ronald McDonald. The fact remains you do not know me, have never met me, and had no right to patronize me. My parents raised me to treat men with respect, at least until I got to know them. My friends do the same. I guess this concept is regional.

Additionally, if you are not a life member of SCI then please don't question my contributions to this great organization. I have given thousands upon thousands of dollars to SCI in hunt donations so let's not go there.

"Questioning" is a great way to expose fact from fiction (i.e. revealing truth). In this case, I will concede. As a "Life Member" you did contribute to a great organization. However, you cannot and will not stop me from questioning your motives. For example, were your motives sincere (for wildlife, habitat, and hunter rights), or for your financial gain? Does a little grease yield more profit from a clientele you seemly despise in one breath and celebrate in another? The jury is in and listening.

You sound a bit self righteous and a little naive to me. Let me say again, I don't have any problem at all with record books.

I could easily say the same, but I do not need to-it's blantantly evident. And then you write:

Record books in themselves are nothing more than tools no more or less dangerous than the individual who wields them but, all too often they are a means to promote one's self not hunting or conservation. It is the need to shoot "book" animals that has directly, yes I said directly, caused the manipulation of wildlife thru captive breeding in order to produce record book heads. While these animals are nothing more than hormone induced science projects they are recordable in SCI for inclusion in their book.

No problem at all, eh? You should have followed up by saying; I do precisely what I'm against on my 1000 acres in Tennessee. Here are a few links-see for yourself:

Clarkrange Hunting Lodge | Ken Moody Hunting Enterprises – “Excellence In Hunting”

» Ken Moody with a massive 5x5 Bull Elk | Ken Moody Hunting Enterprises – “Excellence In Hunting”

I hunt nearly 1000 clients annually and I measure many trophies each year for my clients and am myself a measurer for both SCI and ROE. All good guys and great clients who merely wish to officially record their animals and support SCI's conservation efforts.

Is this a distinct 180 turnaround? Are you now approving of SCI's record book? I'm looking forward to the upcoming bash.

You may fall into this category yourself but again, no one knows who you are.

Well, let's see. As a first rate no one, I know exactly who I am. I sleep quit well at night, thank you.

This "world gone mad" concept of artificial manipulation is not good for hunting in any way, shape or form. Genetically altered species that are scientifically bred for big racks or large horns are an abomination in my opinion.

Unless of course you do it:

Episode 2 | Ken Moody Hunting Enterprises – “Excellence In Hunting”

and

Episode 13 | Ken Moody Hunting Enterprises – “Excellence In Hunting”

Congrats on a hog of a Corsican (genetically altered species), by the way. That is the largest ram I've ever seen.

Test tube whitetails are all the norm on the high priced game ranches that specialize in providing their clients with record book specimens to kill. Were it not for the "book" these operations would have no end market for their creations and would go away.

Really? Animal husbandry and the practice of hunting the product have occurred around the world for thousands of years-well before the advent of record books. Why would you think such practices would disappear if the books were burned? Again, you have no problem with the "book"?

This is the underbelly and dark side of what record books can inspire. How can anyone participate in this practice and call themselves a hunter???

Speaking from experience Ken, please pray tell!

I appreciate all the good that SCI does and realize that their record book is simply a means to making more money but I also recognize the suspect and questionable wildlife practices that are also derived from inducing competition into the hunting industry. It's not all rosy and sweet smelling as some might believe.

Look Ken, I am not here to engage in a spitting match with you. Nor am I here to follow in a succession of name calling. However, I must be honest (another trait I strive to possess). The 'love it, hate it, love it, hate it'.... leaves me confused! Am I dealing with a meandering man?

Send me a PM. We've robbed Fritz enough.

It has been some time since I have witnessed such a display.

The character of this sight is naturally full of long and deep held opinions

It is however, I have always felt, a forum where "gentlemen" gather to share information, experiences and opinions

in a manner befitting gentlemen

I am left to believe that somewhere along the way this thread has taken a major departure from this protocol

meaningless, personal attacks and boorish composition demean this site and lessen its usefulness

being a bystander at a cat fight between two grown men holds precious little appeal to the balance of those gathered here, I believe.

My suggestion, and it is only a suggestion, is that both of you take a deep breath, return to your respective corners, and await the bell signaling Round 2

Originally Posted by Second Wind

It has been some time since I have witnessed such a display.

The character of this sight is naturally full of long and deep held opinions

It is however, I have always felt, a forum where "gentlemen" gather to share information, experiences and opinions

in a manner befitting gentlemen

I am left to believe that somewhere along the way this thread has taken a major departure from this protocol

meaningless, personal attacks and boorish composition demean this site and lessen its usefulness

being a bystander at a cat fight between two grown men holds precious little appeal to the balance of those gathered here, I believe.

My suggestion, and it is only a suggestion, is that both of you take a deep breath, return to your respective corners, and await the bell signaling Round 2

Well said.

Thank you Second Wind.
I retired from another forum because you could not say anything and then the whole forum started calling you names.
I do not mind if someone does not share my view or opinion, but to start personal insults is not to professional.

Originally Posted by Fritz Rabe

Thank you Second Wind.
I retired from another forum because you could not say anything and then the whole forum started calling you names.
I do not mind if someone does not share my view or opinion, but to start personal insults is not to professional.

I think I know what forum you talk about Fritz and I totally understand you.
In my experience has this forum had very little of these personal attacks and insults and I both hope and think both gentlemen see that some of their posts in this thread would fit better in PMs instead.

After all is hunting the great passion for all in this forum and we will not always agree. But disagreement should be kept in a respectful way.

You know exactly what forum I talk about N-woods. These days I hardly ever say anything there. I just sit back and read all the fights on there if I really have nothing else to do.

On that forum I have seen grown men behave like uneducated 3 year old kids and I do not need to be part thereof.

I shall not be dragged into such fights again. I choose what I do.

Well no need to getting into name calling.
Here is the crown excample on my points:
This is a pic of what is supposed to be no. 1 world record elk. The first pic are followed by an email claiming this bull was taken in Selway Montana:

selway-bull.jpg

from this website:

New World Record Bull Elk? ｫ The Great White Hunter

If you go to the website of one of those canned hunt operations in Quebec Canada you will find the same pic, but in this one the. guide are removed from the pic. I am pretty sure its the same pic otherways. It is for sure the same bull.


Laurentian Wildlife Estate - Elk Hunt Canada - Red Deer Stag Hunting Canada - Canadian Bear Hunts - Lodge - Outfitter

Reading some revievs over this canned hunt operations you will see they are open about the genetic manipulation they are doing.

quote:

Renowned around the world for their antler
genetic research, this estate is the first
location to produce the 泥ouble 500,
where both an elk and stag score over 500
SCI points. This has been achieved by the
estate's superior genetics, selective
breeding, proper culling of inferior animals
and by restricting the number of hunts each
year.


Got that here:

Quebec Preserve | She Expeditions

Si my final question are: Is this a true record or just someone trying to bye themselves into the magic book?

Originally Posted by Fritz Rabe

Thank you Second Wind.
I retired from another forum because you could not say anything and then the whole forum started calling you names.
I do not mind if someone does not share my view or opinion, but to start personal insults is not to professional.

everyone doesnt have the same opinion on subjects, so before it gets nasty...you just need to learn to agree to disagree and then move on

Wolverine, I guess I am confused or simply ignorant on this topic

Is game management at any level a tolerable or acceptable act?

If so, then how far down the line does this tolerance extend:
selective culling?
supplemental feeding?
introductions to the resident gene pool?

I suppose you could argue that even supplemental water sources in the middle of a severe drought might be considered manipulation

Honestly, after reading the above and foregoing I am not quite sure

I think the first act of management is when you insert a human presence into a wild population ie hunting. It seems that after that it becomes a pretty slippery slope, however, as the human presence and the accompanying pressure increases, it would seem that the responsibility for proper and adequate wildlife management grows more necessary, not less.

I acknowledge that there are canned hunts, captured breeding programs and a host of other acts that many find distasteful, but, we must remember that, embedded in these seeming indignities to wildlife may reside the key to their future, preservation and restoration.

The technologies developed as a result of these "programs" may one day prove very useful and sometimes you take the good with the bad

See, there is always the possibility that a few generations from now, our great - great - great whatevers may be readying themselves for the upcoming Mastodon Season and the reintroduction of that might be traced all the way back to some individual, currently held in disrepute, trying to develop a mega-whatever that he could sell in a canned hunt to raise money for more of his research.

I guess I am more of a long term, big picture, optimistic sort that just wanders through life assuming that everything is really alright with the world, people are generally good and things will probably work out any way