470 NE vs. 500 NE

Oh, I am sure this has to be worth a weeks worth of comment and agitation

I also realize that someone is bound to get their panties in a bunch at some point along the trail

All that being said

.... When I look at the assorted offerings, I see little difference in price between a 470 and a 500;

Off the shelf, the ammo is within $5 per box of each other

as far as stopping power I think the edge has to go to the 500 BUT

in real life can you actually benefit from the extra 6-800 ft lbs that the 500 brings

ammunition availability? I guess the nod has to go to the 470

So then here is the hypothetical

You are just about to write the check, you have studied it and thought about it

Which did you choose and why?

Now let's everyone be nice

I had a 470 and my father used a 500 most of his life. I have shot both into animals and can honestly not say that the one is better than the other. The one thing that I did experience was that the muzzle lift of the 500 was more than for the 470 and that made your second shot just a little slower than for the 470.
If I had to use a double again and I can choose then it would be a 450/400. Low recoil and lots of penetration.
But as you gave the choice between 470 and 500 I would not be able to choose. You decide for me and I shall hunt with it.

Fritz has a world of experience that few of us here approach. But let me take it from a slightly different angle. Were I buying that new double, it would be as a potential client. I believe my primary contribution in that role (other than not being a jerk) is to get the first shot in as accurately as I can possibly place it. My PH's role, on the other hand, is to get us close, add supporting fire if needed, and most importantly, stop in bound big stuff. Those two roles create, in my mind, different sets of priorities.

Normally, usually, most of the time, a .470 is made up into a bit more user friendly package than a .500. With either rifle, as a client, we are probably going to be openning hostilities with either a tusker or a buffalo. In most cases, I think a .470 will allow you to arrive a little fresher at your target and more easily make that first shot than will a typical .500. And yes there are exceptions. As a PH, and could I afford a double, I would want the most decisive caliber that I could mannage effectively. Mannaging effectively would include hauling around bloody miles of Africa as well as shootability.

So all that said, of two, I think I would pick the .470 for me as erstwhile client, and I would likely lean toward the .500 were I a DG PH. And at the end of the day, the actual rifle's handling qualities (and cost!) would probably drive my choice. And like Fritz, I personally, would love to own a .450 3 1/4.

SW i cant see anything in your thread that can give people a reason to get their panties in a twist the main factor for me is weight, as i hate lugging an overweight rifle around in the bush. i had a .470 rigby built for me in 1990/91 which was stunning. when you picked it up the balance was fantastic and made it feel lighter than it was, but you started to notice it after carrying it for a while. i sold it during a lull in going hunting to africa, as paul had some one who wanted to buy it. i had my 9.3 double to keep me happy, but after a bit i felt the need for something bigger again. i had looked at various doubles at the shows and liked the feel of the heym in 450 3/4 as it was a reasonable weight. but as i have told on AH on a different thread i ended up with my refinished lang .470. the first question i asked when told about it was the weight which was pushing the top end of my limit. if it had been a .500 it wouldnt have made any difference i would still have had it , as long as it didnt weigh more. Paul T has his .500 verney-carron being built to 10 1/2 lbs, if i was going to get another double i would do the same as him. the various smaller/big bores .470, both .475`s, both .450`s, 500/465 ,.476 westley, are all in the same ball park firing 480 to 500 grn bullets producing 4900 to 5000 ft/pnd of energy. the .500 nitro takes you into the medium/big bores, and is a definite step up in bullet weight 570 grn, and 5850 ft/pnd of energy, but still in a rifle that can be built to be a reasonable weight. then you hit the .577 and .600 nitros. the .470 will do everything you need as a client or PH , as all you have to do is check out how many ph`s use the .470. the .500 just gives that bit extra you might need one day. i think for someone who wants a double for the first time a .450/400 or .450 3/4 is a good way to go. so i would have either the .470 or the .500 as long as it fitted my weight criteria. the only real answer is to have both (and a 450/400, and a 450 3/4 and a, ah shit again),and spend your time on hunts trying to work out the result.

That 450 3/4 is a gem of a gun. It handles better than most - weight, recoverable recoil, penetration and just because.

If I was the client I would go for the double. If I was the PH, I would stay with my old bolt-action but that is just me and my preferences. Sometimes I long for my double that I sold but that is just because I loved shooting it. I would never trade in my old bolt-water-pipe for one though.

Again I say that it is just me and I won't ever try and convince others that my way is better.

Say Spike.... $70,000 later that was the answer I was looking for!

Originally Posted by Second Wind

Say Spike.... $70,000 later that was the answer I was looking for!

pleasure to be of assistance in providing the answer to your question

So all that said, of two, I think I would pick the .470 for me as erstwhile client, and I would likely lean toward the .500 were I a DG PH. And at the end of the day, the actual rifle's handling qualities (and cost!) would probably drive my choice. And like Fritz, I personally, would love to own a .450 3 1/4.

+1, makes a lot of sense to me.

There is a very nice Krieghoff 470 NE Double Rifle, Single Trigger on gunbroker.com for under 10K, go for it SW, I'll come and help you sight it in,,,,...

35 Bore

You know, I have looked at those K-Guns and while they are beautiful and do fit me well, I do have some concern about that that unusual cocking/de-cocking safety set up. I suppose you would eventually get used to it but for that kind of money I think you want that kind of gun to be as close to perfect as possible.

Right now I am kind of leaning towards one of Butch Searcy's guns, brand new, cut to fit with ejectors it runs $12,500. The fall back to that right now is a Merkel 140.2 and I have seen a good number of those in the 10 -11 range.

No rush, I don't need it until October 2013 for the Zim trip, so I still have a little time left for shopping, commiserating and
day dreaming.

I have to tell you this, Butch has pretty well convinced me that the 470 is the way to go

Excuse me....It was just pointed out to me by the kitchen staff (present GF) that no one on this planet actually "needs" a twelve thousand dollar rifle!

WTF does she know she's from the UK

Originally Posted by Second Wind

Excuse me....It was just pointed out to me by the kitchen staff (present GF) that no one on this planet actually "needs" a twelve thousand dollar rifle!

WTF does she know she's from the UK

Remind her that nobody "needs" 2 kidneys, 200 pair of shoes or diamonds either. She may resond by showing you that no one "needs" sex but stay strong, dont cave to her mind games. We're all rooting for you, We've got your back!

thank you Diamondhitch

She read your post

I am never going to have sex again

Originally Posted by Second Wind

thank you Diamondhitch

She read your post

I am never going to have sex again

And we all think that the Big-5 are dangerous. There are more dangerous creatures around that can not be stopped with even a $20K double.

Originally Posted by Second Wind

35 Bore

You know, I have looked at those K-Guns and while they are beautiful and do fit me well, I do have some concern about that that unusual cocking/de-cocking safety set up. I suppose you would eventually get used to it but for that kind of money I think you want that kind of gun to be as close to perfect as possible.

Right now I am kind of leaning towards one of Butch Searcy's guns, brand new, cut to fit with ejectors it runs $12,500. The fall back to that right now is a Merkel 140.2 and I have seen a good number of those in the 10 -11 range.

No rush, I don't need it until October 2013 for the Zim trip, so I still have a little time left for shopping, commiserating and
day dreaming.

I have to tell you this, Butch has pretty well convinced me that the 470 is the way to go

Nice thing about a Krieghoff is that de-cocker. Was never a safer third guy in line rifle. However, a search for a double rifle as "close to perfect as possible" would have me in the UK rather than Paso Robles talking
to the folks at Westley Richards. They are building the "rising bite" action again for the first time in about eighty years - with drop locks. What a rifle. And it can be yours for only about 100k. Or you can take the train down to London and have the folks at Holland & Holland build you a Royal - for about 120k. Your better half should really appreciate the sacrfices you are making to even consider something so common as the Krieghoff or Searcy.

OK maybe we should have gone with the kidneys, spice for our food and air conditioning. That way you would probably still be part of the breeding population!

Originally Posted by Fritz Rabe

And we all think that the Big-5 are dangerous. There are more dangerous creatures around that can not be stopped with even a $20K double.

Try a $20K diamond, works every time. As Ron Whites slogan says "Diamonds........ that'll shut her up".

$100,000 double rifles, $20,000 diamonds and .....kidneys!

Let's back up the bus here boys

Maybe its time to have that talk about my needs which are so few,

a housekeeper, and;

a hooker

Yep, that about covers it

For that same $120 K I can get la whole lot of either or both

And, if I need "love", I'll buy a dog

Originally Posted by Second Wind

$100,000 double rifles, $20,000 diamonds and .....kidneys!

Let's back up the bus here boys

Maybe its time to have that talk about my needs which are so few,

a housekeeper, and;

a hooker

Yep, that about covers it

For that same $120 K I can get la whole lot of either or both

And, if I need "love", I'll buy a dog

i hope the kitchen staff didnt read that !!

I'll probably never own a double rifle - it's taking a lot of saving, but I'm figuring an overseas hunt about every five years after the first one in 2016 (Australian Buffalo) and that doesn't include anything in the way of rifles except the .375 H&H CZ-550 and the 30-06 Remington 7600 I already have.
Having said all that - I'd go .500 if I could afford a double rifle at all. After all, if you're going to spend at least $15K, why not get something that starts with a 5?
Of course, all this changes if I pick the right six numbers Saturday night...