This is a discussion on Ultimate Stopper within the .375 & Up forums, part of the Firearms & Ammunition category; Originally Posted by PaulT Four rounds is probably two or three more than your going to need in most situations ...
02-27-2011, 12:00 AM #21
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I have heard of this CZ feeding problem often, both here in Aus and in Africa but I must say the ones I've have played with fed flawlessly.
Self defence shooting of three Ele with Brno416.
02-27-2011, 05:05 AM #22
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Good Day all, I am here at Pauls request, maybe to answer some questions for you. One has been head stamped brass for the B&Ms and the MDM. Yes, it is available, right now I have stocked some brass from Quality Cartridge. I have had some issues with some of this brass, mostly in the 500 MDM. The 50 B&M, 475 B&M, 458 B&M, 416 B&M, 410 B&M, 375 B&M, 9.3 B&M and finally the 500 MDM are based off of RUM brass. The B&Ms are shortened to 2.25 inches and work from Winchester M70 WSM actions. The 500 MDM is a full length 2.8 inch RUM case, works from a Win M70 that was built for 300 RUM. I use 375 RUM taken out to .500 caliber. The brass, unknown to me at the time, for the 500 MDM that Quality did was based off of basic 404 Jeff from Hornady. It's great brass, however being .004 smaller in diameter than Basic RUM brass! This causes zero issues in the B&M series, but in the 500 MDM and it's extra length the brass over expands, and after 3-4 firings it becomes sticky and scratchy when fired and extracted. So I am not very happy with this issue at all in the 500 MDM. At first I thought it might be something else, I conducted a series of tests with 375 RUM brass, fired this brass 10 times at full 65000 PSI loads, and zero issue, no problems, nothing, and the brass is ready to go another 10 firings. Not so with the Quality 500 MDM.
Last fall I got in contact with Dieter Horneber in Germany, and have contracted with Dieter to make a run of 1000 pieces of basic to SPEC--RUM brass with 500 MDM head stamps. Hoping for delivery of this brass any day now. Since this is to spec and with Hornebers excellent reputation I expect this brass to be superb, and work very well. After testing this I will be contracting with Dieter for all the B&M series cartridges and proper, excellent head stamped brass--not only that, but very reasonable prices as well.
02-27-2011, 05:35 AM #23
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Ok, now would like to address a couple of other things I saw reading through the thread. Paul mentions 3 down +1. Well, this can be done, but snapping over the extractor in a control feed gun I am not so keen on. Myself I always put 3 down, work from the magazine to keep from putting undue stress on the extractor over time. I understand there are some aftermarket extractors that can handle this, but being somewhat old school I am not so sure I trust such. So I keep all the Win M70s at 3 down, work from the magazine. Never had a need that I could not load fast enough to feel that I had to have 4-5 down in the magazine, so I have been content with that.
When I started this little B&M adventure in 2005 I had no earthly idea it would lead to what it has become. It was merely an effort to get a shorter, lighter, faster handling rifle for me to use in the field. But it had to have enough power to handle most anything I might run across. I looked at the sort of rifle I wanted, then what is the biggest cartridge and bullet I can work with on that rifle! And the first was the 50 B&M on a Winchester M70 WSM action, .500 caliber, 18 inch barrel--6.5-8 lbs, depending on the stock, Win Ultimate or Wood by Accurate Innovations. It's capable of 500 gr bullets at 2150 fps, 450-460s up to 2250 fps and under pressure. The same with the 458 B&M as well--so they are equal to 458 Winchester, only the 458 Win has to have 24 inches of barrel to do that, and normally comes in at 9-10 lbs. I would have to equate the 50 B&M with it's extra diameter to hitting anything as hard and equal to 458 Lott. And I have used 458 Lott many many times in the field for comparisons.
The 500 MDM was on the books for some time before going ahead with it. I actually felt I was going back in the larger direction with the rifle, which is true to an extent. With the case capacity of the full length RUM case, and 500 Caliber, I started the 500 MDM with a 21 inch barrel. So these rifles come in shorter and lighter than your standard 458 Lott. Not bad for the levels that this can be run to.
Last fall I finally got around to doing pressure traces on the 500 MDM, and had some tremendous surprises in store! From case study working up the first loads I thought I might be approaching upper levels, I was very conservative, and incorrect. Over the last few years I have worked extremely hard getting proper .500 caliber bullets for serious work in the field, buffalo, elephant, hippo the works. We have that in .500 caliber from several sources now, but the two I like most is a bullet we developed with the help of Cutting Edge bullets and from North Fork Tech. With new modern solids we no longer need to worry much with Sectional Density. When I first started with the 500 MDM I had bullets made at 550 grs. I no longer use those, I use the 500 gr CEB BBW#13 Solid, matched with a 460 CEB BBW#13 NonCon--Brass HP. From North Fork a 450 gr FPS and CPS--Cup Point Solid, but expanding cup point! Yes, light for caliber, but terminals is where it counts, and these can handle any job on the planet with ease!
Doing the pressure traces I can easy take the 500 gr CEB #13 Solid to over 2600 fps and stay well under pressure, the matching 460 NonCon to 2650, the North Fork 450s to 2750 fps, all well under pressure limits. In a 21 inch, 8.5 lb Winchester M70.
Now, this is not needed for field work in my opinion. I am taking the 500 MDM along in June for a run at some buffalo and plains game and anything else I can get at the time. Working loads right now I have the 500 CEB #13 at 2400 fps, 460 NonCon at a touch over 2500 fps, the North Forks in the 2500 fps range as well. Working on POIs at 50 yds so I can use and test these bullets in the field in June. Same bullets will be used in one of my 50 B&Ms as well. I expect some really excellent results.
I have what is called a Super Short series, consists of 3 cartridges, 50 B&M Super Short .500 caliber, 458 Super Short, and a new 475 Super Short. These are tiny guns, based off the Win WSM case, cut and trimmed to 1.65 inches, they fit in a tiny little Winchester WSSM rifle--16 inch barrels, Ultimate stocks, weigh 6.25 lbs. With the right bullets, they can push some envelopes as well. I had North Fork make a .500 caliber FPS and CPS for the 50 Super Short at 375 grs. These bullets do better in test work than most of our common big bore bullets we use in some common other calibers, far the heavies! Which is saying quite a bit. I could not help myself but the other week I took that 375 North Fork to the 500 MDM for giggles to see what I could come up with, and stay under pressures. I was able to go over 3000 fps with the 375 North Fork at around 59000 PSI. I stopped, no need to go further!
The cartridge and rifle have been rather impressive, for the size of the rifle! Oh to be sure, there are many many big and large caliber cartridges that can equal or exceed the 500 MDM---but not in the same package that is wrapped around the cartridge!!!! Winchester M70!
02-27-2011, 05:39 AM #24
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Hi Buddy! Concerning the "NO ROUNDNOSE SOLIDS" in my rifles, I have not sent that paper work to Paul yet, but the clause is in there, and he MUST sign off on this before I ship the rifles to the exporter!
There will be NO days that a round nose solid will POLLUTE the bores of one of my rifles! This could cause a severe failure of performance that I cannot tolerate under any circumstances. So this has to be signed and under contract before the rifle leaves here!!!!!
HEH HEH HEH
02-27-2011, 08:03 AM #25
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Replied to your PM--but got error message saying your box was overfilled?
02-27-2011, 08:06 AM #26
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Thanks for stopping in michael458 and giving us those explanations. My first venture into the bigger bores was last summer when I picked up a M70 375. I could see myself venturing up to 416 maybe even the 458 at some point. I'll be keeping my eye on your progress. I've always loved my various M70's so a custom based on this action may just be in my future.
02-27-2011, 03:23 PM #27
Thank you so much to Mike for stopping by and clearing up some of the requests for information, and setting straight some of my inaccuracies.
From the response provided;
Phoenix Phil,as you can see, all is good to go with brass and these cartrdiges were designed to be based on your favourite platform action, so there's a couple more excuses for not getting one, out of the way ???
Classicsafari, my apoligies for my misleading information on the capacity as I read that although it is possible, it certainly isn't reccomended to ride over that fourth round. Meaning, you will only get three of those Ele's down before being trampled ! Neat picture by the way, thanks for posting.
Again, for those visiting who would like more information on these rifles and cartridges, please visit;
B & M Rifles and Cartridges
04-22-2011, 02:33 AM #28
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Feeding from the magazine
Lets, see, you load all the cartridges in the magazine it will hold, in a CRF bolt action. With one hand you hold the cartridges down in the magazine with your fingers to allow the bolt to ride partially over the cartridges without picking them up. You then take another round, slip it towards the chamber, placing the head of the cartridge down into the magazine as though it was being fed into the chamer. Now you move the bolt slowly forward, allowing the rim to come up under the extractor so as not to force the extractor over the rim, just as though it was being fed from the magazine. You follow through slowly putting the bolt into battery. Finally, with the safety on, you cycle all the cartidges thru the magazine to assure that the rifle will feed reliably with the magazine full and another in the chamber. One in the chamber and three in the magazine trumps one and two in my book.
I started doing this with my M70 Supergrade in .270 Win in 1957, without a hitch, and have done so in literally hundreds of bolt actions since. I don't remember a problem, as if you follow my procedure, your rifle will tell you whether it works with that specific gun. The ony one I can remember as being recalcitrant is my Weatherby .240 Mag. It will take six in the magazine but will not allow the seventh in the chamber, as the bolt will not ride over the carttridges in the magazine, as they cannot be pushed further down into the magazine. Occasionally you find a rifle like this. Again, the rifle will tell you whether it will work with it or not.
After such an erudite discussion, I was a little surprised to hear of concerns over snapping the CRF extractor over a case that is finger fed directly into the chamber. That is known not to be good for the extractor, and many Mauser=type rifles will not allow the extractor to snap over a chambered round at all. In my case, I knew this 50 years ago and have always used the method described. Am I missing something here?
04-23-2011, 06:46 PM #29
mhlmv1, thank-you for sharing your experience and knowledge.
I too have been doing as you have, with my Cz actioned rifle, carefully feeding an additional cartridge below the extractor and down the action ahead of those held in the magazine, with complete satisfaction.
Though the leading edge of the extractor on my Cz has a slight chamfer facilitating this process.
I do not know just how much this chamfer contributes to this process, wether the Winchester extractor has this chamfer or wether the lack of this forward chamfer prevents this from being done in a c.r.f action.
I do know that there are after-market extractors available specifically ground with this leading chamfer that could be installed at little expense that would allow this process.
I also believe that with the Mod 70, in its current form, loading that additional catridge is possible, it is just not reccomended on an ongoing/regular basis as there is a perceived risk/potential of snapping/breaking the extractor.
In my own circumstances, and the purposes for which I have obtained this rifle, that additional cartridge is not of paramount importance.
Sure, 3 down and one up would be nice, but a total of 3 from THIS cartridge will see me out of most of the worst situations and for the rest, well i am fairly well versed in reloading quickly from a handily positioned cartridge belt which carries my "spares".
To date, the most rounds i have had to fire in a back-up/charge stopping scenario was 8 on a particularly belligerent bull who had not read any of the ballistics charts of the 458Lott and .470N which were being used in his attempted demise.
The first shot from the client was slightly miss-placed and the ensuing battle, which included two consecutive charges at close range, in thick-tall grass, required several very quick re-loads from the belt as my rifle at that time also only held 3 all-up and the client was using a double.
In a situation such as this you never have enough rounds in the rifle and practiced re-loading from a functional, and well positioned, ammo pouch is usually more valuable than having that one extra round (at least in MY hunting circumstances).
Again, you input and knowledge in these things is appreciated, thank-you for posting.
04-24-2011, 12:28 AM #30
Yeah Paul, the buffs really would be getting the thorough treatment with this Goliath ... Hope to use it with you on a buff hunt soon at your place......
MonishITS NOT THE RIFLE BUT THE MAN BEHIND THE RIFLE
04-24-2011, 11:35 AM #31
Really a nice looking rifle, a bit too much recoil for me and although I can shoot the really big bores, I do have to school my mind to do so, therefore I built myself an almost identical rifle to yours but in a .416 Rem.
I like the 40 calibers both in my double rifles and bolt guns, the 404 Jefferys and 450-400 being my favorite.RAY ATKINSON
04-24-2011, 06:51 PM #32
Thanks for your input Ray.
I think that most experienced big bore shooters would be pleasantly surpirsed at just how managable this cartridge, in this particular rifle, is.
I fired an original rifle, very similar to this one, back in 2009, owned by the cartridge designer Mike McCourry with 500gn solids at about 2400 and 470gn hollow points at about the same vels, and the percieved recoil is very similar to full power loads from a standard 458Lott(in a rifle that weighs a pound +, or more !).
The finished weight of the firearm and the ballistics produced by the cartridge has everyone convinced that it would indeed be a fearsome beast, but to be perfectly honest I find it more tolerable that a hotly loaded .416 Rigby.
Your chosen .416 Rem is very user freindly cartridge that carries plenty of authority.
My main motivation in having this rifle built was to reduce the over-all weight and size of rifle i am required to carry over the duration of my hunting season and when, in 2009, I witnessed the effects of this cartridge on our buffalo, well I just had to have one !
Accurate Innovations build an excellent big bore rifle stock, both in terms of handling qualities as well as seemingly contributing to reducing felt recoil, despite of the finished weight.
Ray, please feel free to tag on a pic of your .416 here, I'd love to take a peek.
04-24-2011, 07:21 PM #33
This is the emergency replacement rifle,
(I operate in a remote area well away from any gun stores), for the .500 listed in this thread.
Platform; Win Mod 70 C.R.F.
Barrel; Pacnor 22".
Stock; Accurate Innovations Turkish Walnut with aliminium bedding chassis.
Metalwork; S.S.K Industries
Finish; Gunkote matt.
DSC08125.JPG DSC08123.JPG DSC08120.JPG
04-24-2011, 07:58 PM #34
10-26-2012, 10:13 PM #35
As a follow-up to this thread that I commenced back in Feb this year I can now report that this .500 MDM rifle, subject of this thread, was given a thorough work-out in the field in use as a back-up weapon on our buffalo hunts in Arnhemland, Australia this current season.
Firstly, I would like to mention the ergonomics of this firearm;
Without any doubt what-so-ever this is the most pleasant firearm I have ever carried for any reasonable duration of time (every day, for over for over four months).
Light weight (for a big bore), short in over-all length, a rifle of these dimensions is a pure joy to carry and at no stage during the entire season did it ever feel cumbersome or tiring to carry.
By far the best carrying rifle I have owned to date.
Light and short, it is very fast to employ in to action and for fast and furious action where you to need to swing around to aquire a target it is extremely fast and positive.
It goes without saying that a .50 cal rifle weighing 8.5lbs is going to kick.
No shit Sherlock !
The ergonomics of this stock go A LONG WAY to reducing felt recoil and taming it to a point where I would say it is no worse than full loads in a Lott.
After one full season and about 220 loads I am more than comfortable with the rifle, recoil not being an issue.
Excellent handling characteristics.
With over 200 rounds down the tube now, some at the range testing, most in the field and with not so much as a slight hitch, no mis-feeds, no jams, no lock-ups no nothing. Shoots ragged holes as groups at 50yds and functions with repeated consistancy.
Mechanical performance was excellent.
Regarding field performance.
I could end this right here with one word; staggering !
The 460gn C.E.B # 13 Non-con projectile handloaded at 2400fps proved absolutely devastating.
Some of the knock-downs, on running buffalo, were stunning.
In every instance the projectiles did what they were designed to do with the petals shearing and creating a disaster area of the insides and the remaining shank penetrating the rest of the animal in a true straight line of the angle the original shot was taken.
Of 16 bovines shot only one shank was recovered and this was after it had penetrated almost 6ft of a wild Oxen.
This cartrdige packs some SERIOUS punch and delivers it to buffalo in a very emphatic manner !
I have used many, and seen many other, calibers employed on our buffalo and I can comfortably relate that this cartridge, using these projectiles, is in a class of its own.
Sadly, as a reloading only proposition there are many shooters and hunters who could benefit greatly from such a chambering that will never know.
For those that wish to experiment I can relay that forming brass from .375 Rum ultra mag is straight forward for anyone who has fireformed cartridges before.
The .500 MDM is not difficult to load for so long as basic reloading principals of minding pressure are adhered to.
Both C.E.B and North Fork are making SERIOUS hunting projectiles in .50 cal
Performance of cartridge; EXCEPTIONAL !
Cheers for now and thanks for looking.
10-27-2012, 08:05 PM #36
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So Paul, after reading this thread, I take it that you really really like this caliber.
Seriously, It sounds fantastic a true half inch bullet with managable recoil for most shooters, and the devastating effects on Buffalo you are describing sounds almost to good to be true. Congrats on finding your big bore."That which does not kill us makes us stronger" Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2012, 08:36 PM #37
10-29-2012, 04:22 AM #38
10-30-2012, 02:21 AM #39
10-30-2012, 03:24 AM #40
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50 cal hunting projectiles ,thats a fair dinkum statement paul .
as intrigued as i am with this thread
i think im way out of my league mate .
thanks for the insight though
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