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Larry, I don't think you are wrong about your love of the 45-70. It was good enough for the buffalo hunts of another era...why not now? I think since you are using such big bullets with a lot of knockdown power....why not a 45-70? I don't see a problem with it at all. If you can hit a elephant in the brain..it will be dead from your gun. That gun has a lot of power!
I love my 45-70 also. Great gun. There is a 1895 guide gun in 45-70 on AR's classified I would buy if it was not ported (I refuse to own a ported rifle).
But they do not have a lot of knockdown power.
From Garretts site
GARRETT'S 45-70 EXITER AMMO
Elephant, Rhino, Hippo, Cape Buffalo
500-GRAIN Hornady Copper-Clad Steel Jacketed Flatnose Solid at 1530-fps
FIRE ONLY IN MARLINS & WINCHESTERS
ENERGY: 2600 FT/LBS
With the same bullet my Lott makes well over double that energy with another 50% velocity. That is a powerful cartridge.
I do not want anybody to be encouraged to go to Africa and hunt Buf or especially ele with a 45-70. But if you do, the PH hopefully can save your butt (and his and trackers) if needed.
I have a double 45-70 that I love to shoot. If by chance I ever get to hunt elephant, I will definately be shooting something like a 577 NE!
This discussion is pretty much down to two opposing camps. The real bottom line here is what the hunter and the PH are comfortable with. That is where DG hunts with archery and black powder come from. To some that is a hunt, to others that is suicide. Without being judgmental here, I suggest we all retreat back to our respective camps and do what WE are comfortable with, and just agree to disagree. For me, the bottom line on rifles is that if a bullet is well placed, it will be effective. If an animal is poorly shot, no matter how big the rifle caliber is, it will seldom make up for your bad hit. Big calibers do not overcome poor shooting. This is not to say that a super caliber is not a good thing (unless YOU can't shoot it effectively, which the majority can not). We have all seen of hunters who go out and buy a heavy recoiling rifle a month before going to Africa, Alaska, or wherever... because they think they are going to need a super powerful rifle. You know the drill. Very often this is a huge mistake and they find they have more rifle than they can handle. This scares the hell out of the PHs I have spoken to about it. So I will opine this, find your comfort zone and respect other's comfort zone. No competent PH is going to put you, his trackers, or himself into a needlessly bad situation. Can things go bad on a DG hunt... hell yes, but your rifle may not always get you out of it no matter how big it is. You have to do your job correctly and quickly. 'Nough said.
I think you are talking about two different issues. Not knowing your rifle is a huge issue whether it is a 45-70, 375 HH or a 600 Overkill. A PH in Africa or guide in NA knows in a second if you can or cannot handle the rifle. Same thing goes for poor shooting, no argument from me.
The issue is whether a 45-70 is effective against the largest of game. A lot of people read these forums to learn (me). Some of us post because we think we know just about everything (me again). I do not think a 45-70 is consistently effective against a large bull elephant even though it has been done. There are several long and hostile threads on AR about this very subject. Some of these guys actually shot elephant skulls with 45-70 (various loads) and compared them to a 458 Win (which is no super caliber nor is the Lott) The 45-70 failed miserably. Those guys have too much money and time on their hands.
My point is that if you are new to this game there are much better choices for Dangerous Game than the 45-70.
Have I shot an elephant? No. The closest has been when I was hunting buf in the Selous. They are an impressive creature up close.
That all changes in 24 days when I leave for Zim. 470 Nitro Double K-Gun that I can effectively shoot and by the time I leave will have run 250 rounds through it.
As far as "Nough Said" there will never be enough said on this subject.
Mike,
You have a fun, successful and safe trip! I'll be looking for your posts when you get back.
Larry
Thanks Larry. I am just a little nervous well maybe slightly more than a little. This will be a culmination nearly forty years of hunting and preparation.
:dozingoff::dozingoff::dozingoff::dozingoff: :shakehead:Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Mikelsen
The real bottom line is what is suitable for the purpose, and what is LEGAL! The 45-70 is not legal for Buffalo, or elephant in any country in Africa. It cannot meet the energy requirements.
You are quite correct in your statement above that big calibers will not ovecome poor shooting, and I'm right in saying the 45-70 will not overcome it's inelagibility and lack of enough energy for dangerous game like Cape Buffalo, and elephant in Africa either.
You are right that there are those who go out and buy a rifle they can't shoot well, and there are guys who go to Africa with a rifle that is not suited, nor legal to hunt Buffalo, and elephant, one is as bad as the other!
No competent PH is going to allow you to hunt elephant with an illegal, and under powered rifle either. The key here is competent
Yes things can go bad on safari, and useing a under powered, and illegal rifle to hunt Cape Buffalo or Elephant is not a good idea, and I can guarintee you things are far more likely to go bad if you attempt the top two of the big five with a 45-70, than they are when useuing a something that was designed for the purpose. The learning to use your rifle is a prerequisite when attempting to hunt anything that kills back, but learning what rifle to use is just as important as learning to shoot it.
I love the old indian killer 45-70, but it simply is a joke on the big stuff in Africa. It was designed for fighting indians, not shooting dangerous game in Africa. It is fine for it's intended purpose but is sorely lacking for anything in Africa larger, or more dangerous that Leopard, and if wounded certainly questionble for lion, and illegal, as well as being a very poor choice for Cape Buffalo, and elephant!
...............As Mike said, there will never be "NUF-said on this subject!:nonono:
Boddington says you can hand load the 45-70 almost to 458 win mag power so the 45-70 can do the trick. The marlin is a very strong gun and can take hot loads that will work very well on big cats and big bears and you can shoot a lot of round in a shot period of time. That said, I still like my 375 H&H for bears and would rather have something like a 458 lott or better for elephant and buffalo. Of course, shot placement is the most important thing. My dad grew up hunting white tail on the banks of the Ohio River in Eastern Kentucky with a .22 rim fire and never needed more than one shot and never lost a deer while I on the other hand hit one with a .50 cal black powder rifle from 50 yards I tracked for miles and never got him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by graywall
Greywall, anything that fires a bullet will kill anything that lives if it hits the right organ in that animal, that however doesn't make all firearms the best choice for all animals. I too have killed a lot whitetail deer with a single shot Winchester mod 67 .22 lr during WWII when meat rationing was in effect. I was the oldest boy in my family, and four families moved onto my grand father's ranch in the Hill Country of Texas. My job was to gather meat to feed a lot of people while their men were fighting WWII. This was a subsistance necessity of the time, and not frowned on by anyone as long as you were only taking what you needed to feed your family. Black market people selling game meat were arrested on the spot by the feds.
Because the .22 lr will kill deer with a percise head shot, doesn't make it a deer caliber,it was simply that it was almost imposible to get any ammo other than .22 rim fire, or 12 guage shot shells, durring the war, and you had to conserve it by makeing one shot kills, hence the head shots. It also is not an indication of the 45-70's capability on the Cape Buffalo or Elephant in Africa, simply because a few have been killed with that cartridge.
In both cases the cartridges used were, and are illegal for the use they were put to. In the first case it was a case of need, in the 45-70 case it is not a case of need, but a case of total disregard of the law, and common sense.
There is no need today to use an under powered illegal rifle to hunt elephant, or Cape Buffalo, when there are truck loads of rifles that are not only legal for that use, but are far more capable in that persuit than the 45-70.
I simply do not understand those who insist on useing a chambering that is not only under powered, but illegal as well in this day and time. I personally would rather have a good CRF bolt action 375 H&H with 300 gr softs and solids for Buffalo, or elephant than anything chambered for a 45-70 gov.and in Africa many decry the 375H&H as being minimum for buffalo, and insane for elephant in thick jesse, but is far and away better that the 45-70!
Don't get me wrong I'm not downing the 45-70, or the lever action rifle in any way, simply stateing facts, something that seems to have flown over some heads on this subject! Loaded properly the 1895 marlin 45-70 is fine for a "make do" camp gun for big Bears in North America,far better than a pistol, but I can assure you it is not up to general use on Cape Buffalo, and certainly not for ELEPHANT!
................................just my :2c: :D
I also have Marlin 1895 Guide gun .45-70, picatinny rail, ghost ring&optic fiber at front sight and handgun optic Burris 2-7x32 with balistic plex reticle on top of it. I used it in Namibia. I was expecting shots at up to 100m or so but I was often forced to shoot at much longer distance. Tnx to Balistic plex I managed to take nice zebra at 220m! In very short - soft points (Speer 400grs) was to soft to secure penetration (Blue Wildebeest), hard cast worked well at zebra and partly at oryx (pls, look at oryx shot/hunt section). I was not impressed with stopping power even with excellent shot. My opinion is that if you want to use .45-70 as all around, use both range finder and balistic plex. Mistake at range estimation at 200m+ distances can lead you in total miss