I have my test mules--been thinking about it
Stock Styer prohunter--one in the shop--maybe 30-06 or 308 somthing we have open
StockSauer 202-- my 9.3x62 or the 7mm mag we have on the shelf
Stock Mauser M03
stock Remington 700--the every mans rifle!!!!!!!
One slicked up M 700 just for show
Winchester M70--I have a shoe in for the CRF guys this is a rechambered 300 H&H to 300 wby this gun is slick and its owner will shoot me if it wads up. He has hunted 25 years with this rifle, and its his pride and joy!!!!
Enfield Pattern 14-- 416 rigby. THis is a A square gun that I own. It feeds great--very reliable.
I will get permission to use one of my customers rifles built on a 1909. One fine gun. Its a 30-06.. Meat and taters!!!!
One dead stock winchester in a 30-06.
I will speed cycle the action and slow cycle the action will do each 100 rounds (50 fast --50 slow, with full mags). I will try to do the action to do what Dugaboy1 said to see how they all function. I will try to video it and put it on youtube.
If anyone would like me to try anyting else, If I have access I'll do it.
Someone really should include a Mark V in the test. To me (my opinion only), it's one of the smoothest, easiest loading bolts available. Short pull and short lift. Nine curved lugs instead of two big rectangular ones. Like a Swiss watch.
Will do not a prob! I have plenty of mark V's to pick from.
MarineHawk I'm not telling you or anyone else what to use, but I think it only fair for both sides of an issue be put forth. You and I are not the only ones here, and any debate always has two sides.
Originally Posted by MarineHawk
If you only post where everyone agrees with you, you must have a very thin skin. That must be a little lonely, because there are few places where everyone will agree with everything anyone posts, and there shouldn't be any!
You and I can agree to disagree,without no ill feelings, but because of this thread there are now a few people who have both sides of the PF/CRF issue, and they can decide for themselves, don't you think? If they only heard your opinion, or only mine they would be short 50% of the data they need to make an inlelligent decision on which they want to use.
A forum is a place where people exchange ideas, and if there is only one side presented, then we don't have a forum.
You got reading problems? LOL. My use of the asterisk is related (like a footnote) to the use further above to make the claim that the forum should not prevent people from citing to informative outside sources, like, among all things, the "American Hunter"--which is not really a competitor of this site in any event. On other really, really great hunting forums (with tens of thousands to millions of viewers), one is allowed to cite to information from other forums. TGhey, for instance (I have done so without being eidted), freely can cite to africahunting.com. It makes them a better place. You learn more. How can a forum thrive when every supporting statement must be linked to a statement inside the same forum. It's like when I visited various third world countries recently, which don't allow much internet usage for fear that outside sources might become known.
Originally Posted by DUGABOY1
As to the substance of my post, I didn't try to tell people what to shoot, just questioned the reflexive simplistic pronouncement that a CRF is the only way to go.
Originally Posted by MarineHawk
Your allegation that I am being intolerant of others' views is laughable. I just made the argument that the intolerant, reflexive, CRF-only pronouncements don't fully appreciate the other side. I said repeatedly, as I always have (see quotes above), that Mauser and other CRF options are great options. I just appropriately called into doubt, and questioned the intolerant prononcements that, they are the only acceptable option.
Originally Posted by MarineHawk
It's ironic that you express (feigned, I hope) outrage that my opinion that some push feeds (along with CRF actions) might be acceptable options, is "only post[ing] where everyone agrees with [me]" ... "hav[ing] a very thin skin" and "be[ing] a little lonely."
My views expressed above are completely accepting of the use of Mauser/CRF actions. That's objectively true. See above. Read. In English. You appear to question my tolerance of others' views because I refuse to bend to the CRF-only principle that well-designed and manufactured push-feeds used by competent hunters are unacceptable.
Please reconsider who is the one being "thin skinned" here.
If there is any doubt as to who is being monoplistic as to what it the right gun, you say "I'm not telling you or anyone else what to use," but where do you say (as I do about some CRF rifles) that some excelent push-feeds are "great" or that they might be more appropriate for those more familiar with them. Sadly, you seem to have a my-way-or-the-highway approach. My resisting that dictatorial approach does not make me thin skinned. Mirror please. Look.
To go back to the original question.
I really am having trouble deciding what it is you are "asking" (or perhaps "proposing" is a better choice of words?)
If the rifle's purpose is to be used as a general use African rifle which might be used for dangerous game, then you will be ridiculously over-gunned with a .460 Wby. Moreover, you will be perceived as ridiculously over-gunned by nearly any PH with whom you will hunt. And you will simply widen that band of perception among anyone having the misfortune of standing within fifty feet of that muzzle brake whenever you touch it off.
If the purpose of the rifle is as a dedicated DGR then it still would be far from my first choice of weapons. The most important shots you will ever make will be the first one on any dangerous game animal. Anything that might sub-optimize the placement of that first shot is, to my mind, problematic. Put a .375 or .416 where it needs to go and you will have a very dead buffalo. Miss by suprisingly little with a .460 or a .500 and you will have a mess on your hands. And on a follow-up, you had best have something quick with natural pointing characteristics. Even with a .460, you will likely have to brain or spine an inbound bull.
For a genral purpose rifle, I have taken exactly the opposite approach than you appear to advocate. I have a .375 (on a mauser action) built as a plains game rifle (read 10.2 lbs, fully loaded with scope attached). It shoots 300gr TSXs to MOA, and I can carry it all day with ease. It has no muzzle break. It does have a detachable scope, and splendid open sights with which I am very comfortable. With it I can take plains game out to 250 yards with ease, and I have poked leopard and buffalo very precisely with it. A similar rifle could be put together in a number of medium calibers.
I don't consider the .375 an ideal elephant rifle, and would take my .416 if I had a choice. That said, I would be very confident braining a tusker with this rifle, and wouldn't hesitate if a PAC opportunity presents itself whenever I am over there.
Short of it being the last legal caliber on the planet, I can't imagine the set of circumstances or mind set that would cause me to opt for a 460 WBY. But that is just an opinion.
MarinHawk, I seem to have unintentionally struck a nerve with you. I assure you I don’t think you are intolerant, of what I or other use, and neither am I! If you think I insulted you I apologize, because it was not my intention.
M Hawk the reason for all the verbiage in my posts is not to inform you, but to explain the term “Short shift” to the rest who may not know what the term actually means. I find that most descriptions of that phenomenon to be wrong!
I’m not saying that push feed rifles do not work properly when operated properly, they absolutely do! And if I’m the only one who has a reading problem why did you not accept the one passage in one of my posts that says “BOTH TYPES OF RIFLES WORK AS THEY WERE DESIGNED” in the short shift failure causing a jam in the PF rifle.
The problem that causes the jam is the operator, not the rifle. The reason for the PF failure cannot be demonstrated in the tests you want to do with both rifle types, in a shop environment, because the shooter’s failure to operate properly is caused by stress when facing death at the horn or claw. I also said that in my post, paraphrased: UNLESS You have a Buffalo, or lion in the test room that you must stop very quickly!
The CRF feature is simply a stopgap in that situation because it doesn’t allow the stripping of a second round off the magazine before the first one is ejected fired or not. The reason automatic PF’s actions work, is because it takes the human out of the bolt working process of working the action completely, and the CRF does the same thing partially by not allowing the second round to be striped of the magazine till the first round is ejected. …………A VERY SIMPLE DIFFERENCE between the two systems! This is what is meant by a feature making something “IDIOT PROOF” ! It takes the idiot out of the operation that is done automatically, by the feature.
In the case of the Auto, if the hand gets in a hurry to carry out a quick second brain order, the shooter simply fire two rounds rather than just one.
The final analysis both PF and CRF if properly timed work as designed, and as long as properly operated by the shooter both work fine. However in the case of a “short shift’ because of nerves the design of the PF is inferior to the CRF’s design, because the CRF takes the human out of the equation, and the PF doesn’t.
I’m not nor have I ever said that PF rifles are useless, or that they shouldn’t be used for all sorts of hunting. What I am saying however is, they are not the best choice for the close-in hunting of dangerous game, simply because of the nerve induced “SHORT SHIFTING PHENOMONON being something the PF cannot mitigate. The CRF can and does mitigate it.
I have fired the .460 and it gave me a massive headache and a split lip! I use a .450 Ackley and it is the sweetest thing to shoot. From experience, the buffalo would not have known the difference had I hit him with a .460WBY. I like a big calibre, but I would take something that's a bit more practical and a lot more friendly. If I have ammo issues in the field, I can slip in .458 Win Mag ammo and just carry on and they will be very easy to come by in Africa.
On my last hunt, in 42 days in the field, I fired 54 shots out of the .450 - a target, an eland (just for fun) and 3 at a buffalo (two were insurance as he pretty much dropped to the shot). On the same hunt, I also carried a .300WBY, fired maybe 40 rounds of this rifle. I had both rifles with me all of the time - but why shoot a mountain reedbuck or a tsessebe with the .450?
If I were choosing between .375 and .460 - I would take the .375 every time unless I was only hunting elephant - then I'd ditch the .460 and get a .450 Lott or similar. And if you get the .375, get the H&H!
Enjoy your hunting.
Originally Posted by DUGABOY1
I have used both PF and CRF action types extensively over many years and I am in agreement with the three above points made by 'Dugaboy'. I also completely agree with his point #3. Whether one is a CRF fan or not I don't think that particular advantage of a CRF action can be disputed.
505ED, very well thought out post!
Originally Posted by 505ED
On the test you want to make on the different systems it will show the difference in quality of manufacture but will not show the difference in the handling of a "SHORT STROKE" that is nerve induced when a shooter is involved in a close-in life and death situation. What I mean by this is Both types of rifles where CRF, and PF are concerned operate perfectly as designed when properly operated by the shooter. The problem arises when the shooter gets rattled in a close encounter of the dangerous kind. This cannot be duplicated on a firing range, or in a gun shop, unless you turn loose a lion in the shop.
The "Short Stroke" phenomenon is not what most think it is. The most people I've asked have said it is when a guy fires a shot, and because he in a big hurry to get off the next shot doesn't pull the bolt all the way back before he goes forward with the bolt again closing the action on an empty chamber. This would be bad for sure, but this is not the short stroke that causes a jam.
What happens in the most often short stroke is, the shot is fired, it doesn't stop the animal, your mind tell you to work that bolt fast to get off shot two. Right here is where the problem with the PF comes in while you are going forward with the bolt for shot two, before you close the rifles, and turn dawn the bolt for the bolt to take CONTROL of the round for the first time in the process, your mind working faster than your body, issues the order to get of shot three before you have chambered shot two, and your hand stops in the middle of that operation, and retracts the bolt, with a round already in the loading port, now when you go home with that
second brain command, you have two rounds in the loading port with only one chamber to accommodate them. The same exact scenario with a CRF action, the first round would have simply been ejected, and the next round would be in control by the bolt and chambered. Time was lost by this nerve induced mal action by the shooter with a CRF auctioned rifle, but a jam would have been the result of the same involuntary movements with a PF action.
It this scenario, both rifles worked exactly as they were designed to work, and it was the shooter who malfunctioned.
The difference in the outcome was the fact that the CRF ejects that first round AUTOMATICLLY, and the PF was incapable of eject either of the rounds because it didn't have control over either of them.
This is not a feeding problem, but a design problem coupled with short stroking by the shooter. One works and the onther doesn't in that instance! This is simply because the full controll takes the clearing of a mistake by the shooter away before it becomes a problem that may get you killed!
My point is simple: both types of actions can fail. IMO, push-feeds are more likely to jam from user error; CRFs are more likely to jam from mechanical error.
I'm not alone in this. As one of the more prolific Alaskan guides says, “[s]ome Mauser actions have a tendency to jam, which is not a god thing when bear hunting.” Bear Hunting in Alaska: The Brown ... - Google Books.
Personally, aside from practice and experience with a rifle (which is huge in preventing malfunctions), my personal (no one else needs to feel the same way) favorite remedy for the “short stroke” danger you refer to, is to have a bolt rifle with a particularly “short stroke,” which the Mark V has like no other rifle (along with a narrow bolt lift). On most of my hunts, after a kill (including two weeks ago on a half-ton brown bear that I killed almost within rock throwing distance), I look at my rifle to see, without knowing, if there is a live round in the chamber. There always is. I do it without even thinking (then, I think and remove it if appropriate). It’s soooo natural, especially with the Mark V--even, or perhaps especially, under pressure. I shoot these guns alot. They become a figurative extension of my hands.
For me (not necessarily anyone else), I would rather have an action that will only malfunction with user error, but not with mechanical error. Because I never do. It may sound like bragging, but I never do. In 26 years of driving, I've never steered into oncoming traffic. In 40 years of walking, I have never fallen off a cliff. In 24 years of shooting bolt action rifles, I haven't short-stroked a bolt rifle. I just don't do those things.
I hope I did not cause this dead lock of PF vs. CRF. I will tell you that most of the issues we see, and we see quite a few guns this time of year, are with M98-M70 style actions not feeding. The CRF is a sound system, and I see your point Dugaboy. I think you do make a large deal out of the short shift, but then again I've never had a Lion loose in the shop. On the other hand I do think the PF has some short comings. I can get into those too but that is another thread. I will say a safety swich has hurt more folks than a short shift or a short stoke, but know one talks about the merits of a decocker being a must have!
I will test these, but I dont think I'm going to convert a bunch of people from PF to CRF or vice versa. A high quality PF is a very sound and safe weapon, so is a well tuned CRF. Sorry I brought this up--but I just see quite a few people with not near this experence that is on this board in the shop talking out there A&^ if you know what I mean. Good stuff! Thanks guys for expounding both side of the fence!
Have lately procured a .460 WM , a fantastic caliber , but still have to put to use in a practical hunt situation. Roy developed this cartridge specially for the AFRICAN big game hunting during the later time when the .458 Win. Magnum was ruling the roost in the bolt action rifles to hunt the big 5 . Have shot around 150 odd rounds through it to settle the rifle in a proper stature on to the shoulder, no doubt , the recoil is tremendous , & the rifle hits hard both ways .
Had used this caliber once on a cape buff with a borrowed rifle from my friend, it was a single kill shot( after that I wished to own one ) . Actually its a personal perception , how much recoil one can take & what's on one's hunt list. It may be a over gun in certain hunting regions across the globe.
I had been a big bore user & have fired lots of big bore calibers off my shoulder & this caliber is the hardest hitting one , but my heart rests on the "EMPEROR "the famed .375 H&H Magnum, this caliber has been ruling since 100 years & you can take any thing from a Duiker to a massive pachyderm with it, this is my point of view & choosing a caliber that suits you the best is your's......
Have a great safari & do let us know on what caliber you finally settle for .............
OK FIRST PLEASE FORGIVE THE CAPITOLS. I NEVER USE SMALL LETTERS. DIFFICULT FOR ME TO READ AND TYPE SO SORRY EVERYONE PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGY FOR THE BIG LETTERS.
I OWN MANY AFRICAN RIFLES. THE FIRST I EVER BOUGHT WAS A 460 WBY. WAY BACK THEN THE CARTRIDGES WERE A LITTLE MORE POWERFUL THAN THEY ARE NOW. THEY HAVE SLOWED THEM DOWN. FOR EXAMPLE MY FIRST 500 GRAIN BULLETS FROM WBY WERE LISTED AT 2800 FPS. BUT RECENTLY AS CAN BE SEEN ON THEIR WEBSITE THEY HAVE SLOWED THEM DOWN TO 2600 FPS. THAT IS 200 FPS SLOWER. LET ME TELL YOU. WHEN I PULLED THE TRIGGER ON THAT FIRST BATCH OF AMMO AT 2800 FPS LIFE TOOK ON A DIFFERENT MEANING. I MEAN IT STOMPED MY REAR LIKE I HAVE NEVER BEEN STOMPED BEFORE. IT BECAME A SAFE QUEEN AND LATER I BOUGHT A 375 H&H MAGNUM. IT IS A JOY TO SHOOT. I USE IT FOR HOGS IN ARKANSAS AND HAVE SHOT MANY MANY HOGS. IT DROPS THEM IN THEIR TRACKS. LATER I BOUGHT A 378 WBY. AND THE SECRET TO THAT ROUND IS TO HAVE A HEAVY RIFLE. MY 378 WBY WITH 2X12 SWAROVSKI SCOPE WEIGHED IN AT 11 LBS WITH NO AND I REPEAT NO MUZZLE BREAK. AND IT WAS ALSO A JOY TO SHOOT. I SHOT SQUIRRLES AND RABBITS WITH IT FOR PRACTICE SO WHEN I GO TO AFRICA I WOULD BE READY TO HIT WHAT I WAS AIMING AT. REMEMBER WEIGHT IS THE SECRET WITH THAT RIFLE AND LISTEN CLOSELY FOLKS PUT A LIMBSAVER SHOULDER PAD ON THE STOCK. NOW BACK TO THE 460 WBY. SINCE THEY HAVE SLOWED THE BULLET DOWN 200 FPS RECENTLY AND THEY ALSO OFFER A 450 GRAIN BARNS BULLET I AM SORELY TEMPTED TO BUY ANOTHER 460 BUT NOT FROM WEATHERBY. I AM THINKING OF BUYING ONE FROM ART ALPHIN FROM A-SQUARE. HE HAS BEEN TALKING TO ME AND HE SAYS HE CAN WITH HIS HANNIBLE RIFLE TAME THE MIGHTY 460 DOWN A BIT WITH HIS COIL REDUCING STOCK. BUT STILL I WILL PUT A LIMBSAVER ON IT WITH NO MUZZLE BREAK. I HATE THE EAR SHATTERING EFFECT OF THE MUZZLE BREAK. NOW HERE IS A SECRET MANY DONT KNOW. I FEEL THERE ARE TWO MAIN FEATURES NEEDED ON A DANGEROUS GAME RIFLE. AND ONLY ONE MAN MAKES THIS RIFLE. IT HAS TO DO WITH CONTROLLED ROUND FEED WHICH MANY RIFLE COMPANIES MAKE BUT THE SECOND IS BEING ABLE TO CYCLE THE SECOUND ROUND IN THE CHAMBER WITHOUT HITTING YOUR THUMB ON THE SCOPE. WEATHERBY HAS THE MARK V ACTION THAT PREVENTS HITTING YOUR THUMB ON THE SCOPE BUT WEATHERBY DOES NOT HAVE CONTROLLED ROUND FEED AND I HAVE TALKED TO ED WEATHERBY. THEY WILL NOT MAKE THEIR MARK V INTO A COUNTROLLED ROUND ACTION. END OF STORY THERE. BUT ONLY ONE RIFLE ON THE PLANET HAS BOTH CONTROLLED FEED AND AN EVER CLEAR BOLT THAT HAS ENOUGH SPACE BETWEEN THE BOLT KNOB AND THE SCOPE SO YOU WONT HIT YOUR THUMB ON THE SCOPE WHEN CYCLYING THE SECOND ROUND. AND GUESS WHO THEY ARE. IT IS ASQUARE AND ART ALPHIN'S HANNIBLE RIFLE. AND ART HAS SLOWED THE MIGHTY 460 WBY TO 2550 FPS, AND WITH HIS RECOIL REDUCING STOCK AND A LIMBSAVER AND CONTROLLED ROUND FEED AND ALSO EVER CLEAR BOLT SO YOU CAN CYCLE THE SECOND ROUND WITH OUT HITTING THE SCOPE WITH YOUR THUMB THEN I THINK THE 460 HAS FINALY COME IN TO IT'S OWN. I THINK THAT COMBINATION WOULD BE AN OUTSTANDING BIG FIVE MONSTER DROPPER. I ALSO HAVE A 458 LOTT AND A 458 WIN MAG AND A 416 REMINGTON. ALL GREAT GUNS. BUT I THINK THE 460 FROM ART WILL BE A WINNER. BUT I HAVE NOT RECIEVED THAT RIFLE FROM HIM YET SO I MAY HAVE TO EAT MY WORDS WHEN I PULL THE TRIGGER ON MY NEW 460. ART SAID HE CAN REALY HELP TAME THAT BIG BEAST DOWN A LOT BUT IT COULD NEVER BE COMPLETELY TAMED DOWN AND EVEN THOUGH TAMED DOWN WOULD STILL BE A HANDFULL TO SHOOT IN ANY CASE.
NOW ALL THAT HAVING BEEN SAID. I HAVE A JEWEL OF A RIFLE IF PLAINSGAME AND THE BIG FIVE IS ON THE LIST AND I HAVE A GOOD PH WITH A BIG GUN THAT WILL BACK ME UP WHEN I CANNOT RECYCLE THE SECOND ROUND WELL ON A CAPE BUFFALO. AND THAT IS MY 416 REMMINGTON MODEL 70 WINCHESTER RIFLE. DOUBLE TAP HAS LOADED ME UP 5 BOXES OF 20 EACH WITH 350 GRAIN SWIFT A FRAME BULLETS AT 2700 FPS OUT OF A 24 INCH BARREL. IF I AM ONLY AFTER THE BIG 5 THEN THE 460 FROM ART WILL BE ON MY TOP LIST. BUT IF PLAINSGAME AND ALSO THE BIG FIVE WITH A GOOD PH TO BACK ME UP THEN THE 416 REMMY WITH THE 350 GRAIN BULLETS FROM DOUBLE TAP WILL BE MY COMPANION.
Well Winchester Jake, you are certainly set for Africa...all those rifles are great choices!
I HAVE TO ADD AN UPDATE HERE. I WENT TO THE DALLAS SAFARI CONVENTION IN DALLAS RECENTLY AND RAN ACROSS A RIFLE COMPANY CALLED KILLIMANJARO AND TOLD THEM MY STORY OF MY THUMB HITTING THE SCOPE AND ART MAKEING ME THE NEW 460 WITH THE EVER CLEAR BOLT. AND HE SAID HE HAD ONE THAT MY THUMB WOULD CLEAR THE SCOPE. I DID NOT BELIEVE HIM TILL HE HANDED ME ONE WITH A GRANITE MOUNTAIN ACTION. AND RIGHT NEXT TO IT WAS A WEATHERBY. I A B'D THEM AND THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN DOES RAISE UP A LITTLE MORE THAN THE WEATHERBY BUT NOT MUCH AND MY THUMB EASILY CLEARED THE 1X6 SWAROVSKI 30MM SCOPE THEY HAD ON THE RIFLE. AND IT HAD A THREE POSITION SAFTEY AND CONTROLLED ACTION FEED. SO I SAID "HOW MUCH" AND HE SAID 14 THOUSSSSAND DOLLARS. OF COURSE MY MOUTH HIT THE FLOOR. AND I FOUND OUT THAT GRANITE MOUNTAIN CHARGES ABOUT 3 GRAND JUST FOR THEIR ACTIONS. SO REALY THESE KIND OF RIFLES ARE REALY A SUPER RICH MANS PLAY THING. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU CAN GET A NEW WINCHESTER 458 FROM THE FACTORY FOR ONLY A LITTLE OVER ONE GRAND. AND THEY HAVE THEIR NEW TRIGGERS THAT ARE HARD TO BEAT. AND THEN JUST HAVE IT CONVERTED TO A LOTT FOR A LITTLE MONEY. THE THING ABOUT CLEARING THE SCOPE IS A BIG THING WITH ME. STILL WAITING FOR MY RIFLE FROM A SQUARE THAT WILL CLEAR THE SCOPE. THE GUYS AT KILLIMANJARO RIFLES WILL BE COMMING OUT WITH THEIR OWN ACTION IN ABOUT 6 MONTHS WHERE THE BOLT HANDLE WILL CLEAR THE SCOPE. AND THEY ALSO SAID THEY WOULD TAKE MY MONTANA PROFESSIONAL STAINLESS STEEL ACTION THAT MONTANA COMPANY IS MAKING FOR ME AND THEY SAID THEY WOULD CUT THE BOLT HANDLE AND EXTEND IT IN SUCH A WAY THAT MY THUMB WOULD NOT HIT THE SCOPE. SO KNOWING ALL THIS. I WENT TO MY FRIEND MACK WHO WE CALL GATER BAIT GARRET WHO HAS HELPED ME WORK ON MANY RIFLES AND HAS HIS OWN SHOP AND I TOLD HIM WHAT I WANTED. HE IS GOING TO TAKE THE BOLT HANDLE WHICH HE SAID HE COULD VERILY EASILY DO IN HIS SHOP AND CUT IT OFF AND WELD IT BACK ON AFTER ADDING 1/2 INCH TO THE LENGTH OF MY 416 REMMY AND WOULD CUSTOM FIT THE BOLT SO I CAN LIFT EASILY AND NOT HIT THE SCOPE. I TOLD HIM. HOW MUCH MACK. HE SAID WINCHESTER I WILL DO IT FOR YOU FOR FREE. SO NOW I WAS WONDERING DO I TAKE A CHANCE ON MY WONDERFUL 416 REMMY THAT I REALY LIKE SO MUCH. I DONT KNOW. SO I AM GOING TO CALL WINCHESTER AND SEE IF THEY WILL SEND ME A NEW BOLT. AND IF NOT I WILL LET GATOR BAIT TACKLE IT. HE HAS NEVER FAILED ME YET AND HE HAS WORKED ON MANY A RIFLE AND NEVER FAILED. OH AS AN ASIDE. I ASKED CRAIG BODDINGTON AT THE LAST SAFARI MEETING WHICH RIFLE I SHOULD CARRY TO AFRICA IF THE BIG 5 WAS ON THE MENUE AND HE SAID ANY OF THE 416 RIFLES WOULD BE A GOOD CHOICE. "BUT" HE SAID. THE 460 WEATHERBY IS ONLY ONE OF A VERY FEW RIFLES THAT COULD ACTUALLY STOP A CAPE BUFFALO CHARGE AT 10 PACES. BUT THE QUESTION IS CAN I STAND THE RECOIL OF THAT MONSTER. IF YOU READ MY PREVIOUS POSTING YOU WILL SEE I AM HAVING ONE MADE BY ART ALPHIN. WHEN MY 460 COMES IN, ME AND THE LOCAL HOGS ARE GOING TO HAVE A BOUT. I WILL FIND OUT IF I CAN REALY HANDLE IT. AND WILL GET BACK WITH YOU. I HAVE READ SEVERAL ACCOUNTS AND SEEN ON TRACKS ACROSS AFRICA BUFFALO THAT THEIR CHARGE COULD NOT BE STOPPED. IF I CAN HANDLE THIS ROUND I WANT IT. NUFF SAID
Are you serious or are you and gator bait having a little fun with us?
Many years ago Col. Charles Askins related a tale in a magazine about a friend who tangled with a Cape buffalo with his .460. It took eleven rounds of this, plus a headache and bloody nose for the shooter to end hostilities! My second buffalo taken in Botswana fell stone dead to one shot from my .375 at nearly 150 yards. Is it the best charge stopper? I dont reckon so, but one bullet properly placed will negate the need, and besides that look at all the PH's who carry the .375 for backup and how many carry a .460.
I think the only thing that will stop a cape buffalo is a well placed shot with something .375 and up! :rolleyes: