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Long Gun advice...

This is a discussion on Long Gun advice... within the .375 & Up forums, part of the HUNTING EQUIPMENT, FIREARMS & AMMUNITION category; OK I am 48 I have dreamed about it and now the rubber is going to hit the road! I ...

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    Big5er is offline AH Member
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    OK I am 48 I have dreamed about it and now the rubber is going to hit the road! I am going after the black death in honor of my half century on this planet in 2012. First things first I need a weapon and have narrowed it down to two choices... Kimber Caprivi in 458 Lott or Weatherby Mark V Deluxe in 460 Weatherby. I will top whichever I choose with a Burris euro diamond 1.5 x 6.


    I would love to hear from the good folks on this board and their thoughts on these two weapons. I have loved reading all the posts. This is a great place! thanks.

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    Skyline is offline AH Fanatic
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    Welcome to AH .................. and you will enjoy your buffalo hunt.

    Picking from the two options you have presented my choice, with no hesitation at all, would be the Caprivi in .458 Lott.

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    Big5 is offline AH Enthusiast
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    Considering the presented choices I too would pick the .458 Lott. . . . BTW, nice choice of user names, does it mean taking the African Big 5 is a hunting goal of yours?
    .
    There is only one degree of dead . . . there are many degrees of wounded

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    Big5er is offline AH Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big5 View Post
    Considering the presented choices I too would pick the .458 Lott. . . . BTW, nice choice of user names, does it mean taking the African Big 5 is a hunting goal of yours?
    .
    I hope too... leopard is probably next. Whether I can afford elephant or lion at some point is another matter. Honestly, I hope to treat my daughter to elephant if this ever became possible. She and I have talked about it after her plains game hunt.

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    The Lott, it will kill anything on the planet without beating you up.

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    guess I also should have stated that I will not be doing any hand loading.

    seems like the Lott will be the favorite here. I would be interested to hear any of the accompanying negatives concerning the Weatherby.

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    Federal, Hornady, and Norma all load for the Lott.

    If you do not have a lot (no pun intended) of experience shooting big bores the 460 WBY is going to hammer you pretty bad. You can put a brake on it but that seems to be taboo with a lot of people. That being said I know people that feel the 460 is on the lower end of big bores. It is all about experience. A 500 grain bullet at 2600 FPS is smoking.

    I have a Lott in an under 10 pound rifle. It is a pleasure to shoot.

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    Big5er is offline AH Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike70560 View Post
    Federal, Hornady, and Norma all load for the Lott.

    If you do not have a lot (no pun intended) of experience shooting big bores the 460 WBY is going to hammer you pretty bad. You can put a brake on it but that seems to be taboo with a lot of people. That being said I know people that feel the 460 is on the lower end of big bores. It is all about experience. A 500 grain bullet at 2600 FPS is smoking.

    I have a Lott in an under 10 pound rifle. It is a pleasure to shoot.
    thanks Mike... you wouldnt put a muzzle break on the Lott or any other big bore? What is the rationale?

    I would also be interested in a take on a 505 gibbs (I believe Cz puts a mercury recoil reducer on this model standard). I know CZ has a nice offering but have read there are some feeding issues in this model in 458 Lott?

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    Big5 is offline AH Enthusiast
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    . . . pardon my unsolicited opinion, but I wouldn't put a muzzle break on any hunting rifle. They are positively ear shattering devices which seem to have become the 'norm' for today's hunters. They are now even putting them on the likes of .270's and even .243's. Quite simply, if one feels he needs a muzzle break to tolerate the recoil of a .505 Gibbs perhaps he would be better served to become highly proficient and comfortable in shooting something like, let's say, a .375 H&H.

    Certainly a well placed shot from a .375 H&H is sufficient to kill anything one may want to hunt and it has been in use and favored by many thousands of hunters since the development of that cardridge in 1912. One must also give some consideration to the fact that many of the big bore cartridges have been successfully used by hunters without muzzle breaks for nearly a century or more. I can't help thinking they (old timer's) may have been a bit tougher than many of us today.

    With the exception of some wildcat cartridges the 'big bores' were all developed and manufactured for public sale and use by the common man. I repeat, the common man. When properly shouldered and fired without a muzzle break they do not knock you down, they do not tear off your arm, and they do not jump from your grasp. Many 'experienced' hunters know this because they have simply worked their way up to a larger caliber over time.

    Think about it, would anyone even consider putting a muzzle break on a big bore double rifle? I sure don't think so.

    Okay, I got it off my chest, I hate muzzle breaks. Now feel free to fire away if you must.
    .
    There is only one degree of dead . . . there are many degrees of wounded

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    Skyline is offline AH Fanatic
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    Big5.......I could not agree with you more and I think that your advice is right on the money.

    I also hate muzzlebrakes and that probably has something to do with the permanent loss of hearing I have in my left ear that was caused by a client cutting loose beside me with a muzzlebrake.

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    Big5er is offline AH Member
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    thanks for your reply Big5

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    Hi Big5er,

    I had a 460WBY and wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy; Roy must have been pissed when he design that load. I shoot a Rigby 416 now and am very happy. Given the choice of your two, go with the Lott. Good luck and good hunting.

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    where are you in NC? I am in Charlotte.

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    +1000 on the muzzle break. I can shoot my Lott more times than I can afford without hurting my shoulder.

    I own only one CZ and it feeds everytime. A couple of guys on the board recently bought CZ Lotts and if IIRC their reports on the rifles were very satisfactory.

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    Big5er is offline AH Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by frigatecdr View Post
    where are you in NC? I am in Charlotte.
    just north of Winston

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    I like Muzzlebrakes, you can shoot a lot better with one. I wish I could shoot everyday. But I live in the city and there are fewer and fewer shooting ranges. I'm of the opinion, just about everyone should be using hearing protection when hunting. Brake or no brake, shooting is just plain load! Browning vents the noise back at the shooter...it helps with the recoil (but the extra noice is not worth it). My guns have the noice ported forward. And I have noticed my shooting has improved ++. I don't think they are necessary on anything less than 300 Win. and I think for the most part are for 375 H&H and above. But if you shoot a 300 Win Mag for 20 rounds in 1 hours...you are going to have a black and blue shoulder. If I just shoot 5 or less my shoulder doesn't bruise...but at 7 or 8 I'm done...with my physical make-up my shoulder turns yellow and purple. Look at the recoil charts...that's a lot of solid punches.

    I think the most important thing on a hunt is that a client is comfortable and can make a quick and clean shot. A lot of money goes into a hunt.

    SCI did a scope test a few years back with a 460 Weatherby. The scopes survived but most of the scope mounts got destroyed...they couldn't hold that poor scope on the gun...and they used all types...enough said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big5er View Post
    OK I am 48 I have dreamed about it and now the rubber is going to hit the road! I am going after the black death in honor of my half century on this planet in 2012. First things first I need a weapon and have narrowed it down to two choices... Kimber Caprivi in 458 Lott or Weatherby Mark V Deluxe in 460 Weatherby. I will top whichever I choose with a Burris euro diamond 1.5 x 6.


    I would love to hear from the good folks on this board and their thoughts on these two weapons. I have loved reading all the posts. This is a great place! thanks.
    The Weatherby is a bear to shoot. Friend has a 340 Weatherby and a 416 Rigby, can only shoot the 340 a couple times versus the 416 all day.

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    Rod Smith is offline AH Member
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    We see a lot of Weatherby's in various calibres brought to Africa on safari, personally I cannot stand them and have learnt over the years that when there is one in camp we will be following lots of wounded game, most people cannot handle the recoil generated by these powder guzzlers, even with a muzzle brake. Massive amounts of energy are still useless if not in a vital area and the vitals are hard to hit if you have developed a flinch from one of these hard kicking beasts. The .458 Lott has all the power anyone will ever need to hunt anything on 4 legs, I carry one as my dangerous game back up rifle. It would be my choice of the two you are looking at.

    I really used to detest muzzle brakes, I too have a bad left ear from one, but I now believe that they can improve one's shooting consistency, so if you have an issue with recoil, many people do, then I think there is no problem with installing a muzzle brake. Something else that I have seen and it works quite well, is having a brake that screws on and off, it can be used on the range when you and others have hearing protection and felt recoil is a factor to good shooting and avoiding getting a flinch and then it can be removed (without changing the rifles zero) when hunting and hearing protection may not be practical.

    All the best for your Buff hunt.

    Regards

    Rod.

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    I personally stay as far away from weatherby rifles as possible and more so, do not fancy any rifle with a muzzle break. They are terrible things to have in the bush. Just my view. The lott will handle all you come across, but if you are looking for a rifle still, then consider a .416 which is very versatile for big game. Need to put you in contact with someone in NC who has a taxidermy studio that you will enoy visiting... Send me an email. Cheers,
    Ryan Shallom (CEO)
    www.wild-footprints.com
    Tanzania, East-Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckcurtin View Post
    The Weatherby is a bear to shoot. Friend has a 340 Weatherby and a 416 Rigby, can only shoot the 340 a couple times versus the 416 all day.
    Buckcurtain . . . with all due respect, I was a bit puzzled by your post. Although admittedly off topic, there may be something more going on with your friend and the ‘real’ or his ‘perceived’ recoil to cause such disparity between his two rifles. The .416 and the .340 are two of my favorite hunting choices. Neither of my rifles has a muzzle break and I find neither of them to be at all uncomfortable to shoot, especially in a field situation. I have used both rifles extensively over a period of many years and until reading your post I never gave any real thought as to which one ‘kicked’ more. Yet I certainly can’t ever remember thinking that the .340 recoil was so very intense or above that of the .416.

    To satisfy my interest I decided to check the data on a ‘Recoil Table’ of comparative values for the two calibers. The table indicated ‘free recoil energy’ in foot pounds, and ‘free recoil velocity’ in feet-per-second. The recoil values were rounded off to one decimal place. To maintain a proper comparison each of the test rifles weighed 10 lbs. The values are as follows;

    The .340 WBY firing a 200gr bullet @ 3100 fps produced 29.6 foot lbs of energy and had a recoil velocity of 13.8 fps.

    The .416 Rigby firing a 400gr bullet @ 2400 fps produced 58.1 foots lbs of energy and had a recoil velocity of 19.3 fps.

    Those findings would certainly seem to support my view that something more is going on.

    Granted, in ‘real life’ things can at times seem to vary from scientific charts and tables and there are times when the charts and tables don’t seem to agree either. However, I remain of the belief that if your friend can only fire the .340 “a couple times” a day while being able to fire the “.416 all day”, there may be something seriously wrong with one of his rifles. If not, it then may likely be a matter of his ‘perception of the recoil’ which is causing his belief that the .340 recoils so much more intensely than the .416.

    ‘Perceived recoil’ is a highly subjective matter and is influenced by many factors. Most important is the fit and shape of the rifle stock along with the installation of a good recoil pad. Certainly these factors alone will soften the blow to the shooter's shoulder. One must also understand that there are dozens of loads for any given bullet weight in any cartridge that will produce the same velocity, but a different amount of recoil. But I can’t imagine that load and bullet weight alone would be the factor here.

    In general: proper stock fit, the way one shoulders and holds a rifle, coupled with sufficient shooting experience to avoid ‘anticipating’ and ‘fighting’ the recoil will make a world of difference in one’s shooting ability and in all likelihood maintain a bruise free shoulder.
    .
    There is only one degree of dead . . . there are many degrees of wounded

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