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45-70 in Africa

This is a discussion on 45-70 in Africa within the .375 & Up forums, part of the HUNTING EQUIPMENT, FIREARMS & AMMUNITION category; Is the 45-70 suitable for Africa? Ive seen some hot loads for it with heavy bullets. Almost like a Win ...

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    blkpowder50 is offline AH Senior Member
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    Default 45-70 in Africa

    Is the 45-70 suitable for Africa? Ive seen some hot loads for it with heavy bullets. Almost like a Win Mag.Almost but not quite.But in reality it penetrates well and would seem to be a great round for cape buffalo when loaded hot. But i dont know. How is the 45-70 viewed for hunting Africa?

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    While I have not hunted in Africa with the 45-70, I would have to say it is more than suitable for hunting there. Here is an article from another site that talks to taking the Big 5 with the 45-70

    From the web site - "In the summer of 2002, Vince Lupo of Tampa, Florida successfully completed his quest to take the African Big Six with his Marlin 45-70 lever-gun and Garrett Hammerhead Ammo. Vince's efforts spanned a 13-month period, a remarkably short time given the broken ankle Vince suffered during his safaris. From the 220-pound charging leopard Vince stopped point-blank, to his remarkable SCI Gold Medal white rhino and huge elephant, Vince's safaris have demonstrated an exceptional combination of tenacity and outstanding marksmanship. Vince Lupo is the first to take the African Big Five or Six with the 45-70 lever-gun. To read a full account of this remarkable achievement as told by Vince Lupo, check out the articles [at] Garrett Cartridges Inc. "
    .

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    It is often viewed with disdain by many for no real good reason though. No it is not and never will be the equal of the .458 Win, just aint there. It is however a perfectly good caliber for most of what gets hunted in Africa provided you dont try to stretch it out too far. With proper bullets and good velocity it would be perfectly adequate for buffalo. Whether it would be acceptable by law depends on the country hunted. I plan to take a "cowboy" gun on my next sojourn in the form of a Model 95 Win. in the classic .405 Winchester. Will be used primarily when hunting eland, not because its needed, but because I want to. We are also taking a .284 Win for most other plains game. I have worked up good loads for both. In the .405 my load is the 300gr Barnes TSX with enough Varget to get 2175 fps and the .284 load uses Win760 behind the 140gr TSX for just over 3000 fps.

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    sounds good. i figured it would be held in disdain because of its cowboy gun rep and that it will kill all DG, its just not a classic like the .416 Rigby or a Jeffery.

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    It is not a .416 because it isn't. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. A 30-30 is great on deer, but it isn't a 30-06. A 45-70 will deal with anything in Africa - just keep the shots within its performance envelope.
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    Will the 45-70 work? Yes or maybe.

    Are there better choices? Many

    Why is the 45-70 held in disdain?

    A) The myth it is nearly equal to the 458 Win Mag. Both loaded to safe potential with a 500 grain bullet they are not close.

    B) The myth that the 45-70 will out penetrate a Lott or Win Mag. With equal bullets especially good solids it will not be close, especially through heavy bone. The only reason a 45-70 will out penetrate a Lott or Win Mag is in soft tissue it may not have enough velocity to cause a soft to expand. The bullet acts like a solid, with minimal tissue damage. I have seen it happen.

    C) All in all just not enough gun IMO.

    But bring what you want, you are paying trophy fees and more than likely it will be your PH that will be hurt, not you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike70560 View Post
    Will the 45-70 work? Yes or maybe.

    Are there better choices? Many

    Why is the 45-70 held in disdain?

    A) The myth it is nearly equal to the 458 Win Mag. Both loaded to safe potential with a 500 grain bullet they are not close.

    B) The myth that the 45-70 will out penetrate a Lott or Win Mag. With equal bullets especially good solids it will not be close, especially through heavy bone. The only reason a 45-70 will out penetrate a Lott or Win Mag is in soft tissue it may not have enough velocity to cause a soft to expand. The bullet acts like a solid, with minimal tissue damage. I have seen it happen.

    C) All in all just not enough gun IMO.

    But bring what you want, you are paying trophy fees and more than likely it will be your PH that will be hurt, not you.
    See? I told you. Some time ago when the .450 Marlin came out, some took it to Africa for buffalo and pronounced it perfectly adequate. And what is the difference between a .450 Marlin and a hot loaded .45-70? ZERO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leg View Post
    It is not a .416 because it isn't. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. A 30-30 is great on deer, but it isn't a 30-06. A 45-70 will deal with anything in Africa - just keep the shots within its performance envelope.
    i understand what you mean.I know the differences in the ballistic profile between the two. I meant the "its not a Rigby"thing more like nostalgia wise, in memory of those mad dogs and Englishmen that took all that ivory 100 yrs ago and all.When things were different! Id feel confident with a 45-70 in Africa. But if I'm going to Africa Im probably taking a Rigby,if that makes sense...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike70560 View Post
    Will the 45-70 work? Yes or maybe.

    Are there better choices? Many

    Why is the 45-70 held in disdain?

    A) The myth it is nearly equal to the 458 Win Mag. Both loaded to safe potential with a 500 grain bullet they are not close.

    B) The myth that the 45-70 will out penetrate a Lott or Win Mag. With equal bullets especially good solids it will not be close, especially through heavy bone. The only reason a 45-70 will out penetrate a Lott or Win Mag is in soft tissue it may not have enough velocity to cause a soft to expand. The bullet acts like a solid, with minimal tissue damage. I have seen it happen.

    C) All in all just not enough gun IMO.

    But bring what you want, you are paying trophy fees and more than likely it will be your PH that will be hurt, not you.
    No, its not the same level as the 458 Win, and id bet the title to my truck a Lott@2400 will penetrate about as far as a .416 Rigby and way farther than a 45-70. That being said,I think a 45-70 would do fine in Africa in capable hands. But id take a Rigby or a 585 HE,just because I have never hunted Africa before so i want to be sure give those animals a death they deserve, a clean death.

    I think the "myth"as you called it about a 4570 outpenetrating the Lott was a specific cartridge company's(a-hem) sales gimmick. there is the media its going through that matters too.

    I think it might work in Africa.I cant say for sure, never been. It could be a matter of personal choice/confidence in the weapon/skill/circumstance..

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    Scott,

    This topic has been discussed ad nauseam, as is 9.3 by 74 enough gun, is the 375 H&H enough for elephants, are mono-metals better than traditional softs, flat nose versus round nose, lion hunting in South Africa, etc.

    But I still cannot help but comment on the threads. Like others some of what I post is simple fact, other is opinion.

    BTW I would not hunt buff or elephant with 450 Marlin either.

    Size does matter.



    L to R 45-70, 470 Nitro, 458 Lott, 458 Win Mag

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grady View Post
    While I have not hunted in Africa with the 45-70, I would have to say it is more than suitable for hunting there. Here is an article from another site that talks to taking the Big 5 with the 45-70

    From the web site - "In the summer of 2002, Vince Lupo of Tampa, Florida successfully completed his quest to take the African Big Six with his Marlin 45-70 lever-gun and Garrett Hammerhead Ammo. Vince's efforts spanned a 13-month period, a remarkably short time given the broken ankle Vince suffered during his safaris. From the 220-pound charging leopard Vince stopped point-blank, to his remarkable SCI Gold Medal white rhino and huge elephant, Vince's safaris have demonstrated an exceptional combination of tenacity and outstanding marksmanship. Vince Lupo is the first to take the African Big Five or Six with the 45-70 lever-gun. To read a full account of this remarkable achievement as told by Vince Lupo, check out the articles [at] Garrett Cartridges Inc. "
    .
    i believe it, and think Garrett and Buffalo Bore make good 4570 ammo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike70560 View Post
    Scott,

    This topic has been discussed ad nauseam, as is 9.3 by 74 enough gun, is the 375 H&H enough for elephants, are mono-metals better than traditional softs, flat nose versus round nose, lion hunting in South Africa, etc.

    But I still cannot help but comment on the threads. Like others some of what I post is simple fact, other is opinion.

    BTW I would not hunt buff or elephant with 450 Marlin either.

    Size does matter.



    L to R 45-70, 470 Nitro, 458 Lott, 458 Win Mag
    Mike, I wouldnt either! Just saying it would be adequate, not ideal, just adequate. I killed my second buff with one .375 bullet, stone dead. Others say the .375 is marginal, go figure.

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    No experience with either the 45-70 or hunting DG, so for whatever it's worth...... I can't help but think that the question should not be whether or not it can be done but rather should it be done. From my inexperienced perspective, I don't think it should.

    The 2012 African hunting season was a particularly brutal year for PH's. I don't want to be the client that wounded a buffalo that later on follow up charged and killed my PH. No matter what caliber I was using this would be devastating to me. But I think it would only be that much worse if I was shooting a 45-70 when I was quite capable of shooting a much more powerful caliber and perhaps the PH would still be alive had I done so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHOENIX PHIL View Post
    No experience with either the 45-70 or hunting DG, so for whatever it's worth...... I can't help but think that the question should not be whether or not it can be done but rather should it be done. From my inexperienced perspective, I don't think it should.

    The 2012 African hunting season was a particularly brutal year for PH's. I don't want to be the client that wounded a buffalo that later on follow up charged and killed my PH. No matter what caliber I was using this would be devastating to me. But I think it would only be that much worse if I was shooting a 45-70 when I was quite capable of shooting a much more powerful caliber and perhaps the PH would still be alive had I done so.
    I agree. If i am able to make it to Africa, i will be using a .416 Rigby and a .585 HE. Id rather be overgunned than undergunned,especially on my first hunt. If i am able to make it a second time, maybe id be confident with a 4570. I know the 4570 is definitely capable, but i like the 585HE. I can way download it and still get about 4000ft pounds with a 650 grainer.

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    After the 585HE, i like the Rigby or Lott.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blkpowder50 View Post
    After the 585HE, i like the Rigby or Lott.
    just out of interest what are you going to be hunting with these 2 calibres?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spike.t View Post
    just out of interest what are you going to be hunting with these 2 calibres?
    Im going after a great Cape buffalo bull and 2 plains game species,probably an Eland and a kudu. I would not necessarily use both calibers, maybe just one of the two big ones for the bull and a small bore for plains game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blkpowder50 View Post
    Is the 45-70 suitable for Africa? Ive seen some hot loads for it with heavy bullets. Almost like a Win Mag.Almost but not quite.But in reality it penetrates well and would seem to be a great round for cape buffalo when loaded hot. But i dont know. How is the 45-70 viewed for hunting Africa?
    In my opinion no it is not suited for Africa can it be done yes. But there are much better rounds out there suited for the game to be hunted. As for penetration it falls short in my opinion I have two rifles in 45-70 one double and a custom co-pilot lever gun built by a friend Jim West of Wild West guns in Alaska it is actually chambered in 457 Wild West which is a a lengthened 45-70 with faster speeds than the hottest 45-70 and it will shoot 45-70 in the gun as well but still falls short on penetration compared to a 375 up built for dangerous game. For plains game I thing it would be ok if you picked your shoots carefully and limited your distance. So if you really just had to hunt with it for some resign then it is possible but why not pick a better caliber suited for the game. A good 30 cal for plains game and a 375 up for anything dangerous as long as you can shoot it well I think that is much more important than a big gun you are scared to shoot or are bad with
    The bills can wait there is hunting to be done

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    I guess all the animals large and small, worldwide that have fallen to the .45-70 in its various loadings can take some solace in knowing they were killed by a cartridge that doesn't penetrate enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sestoppelman View Post
    I guess all the animals large and small, worldwide that have fallen to the .45-70 in its various loadings can take some solace in knowing they were killed by a cartridge that doesn't penetrate enough.
    i never said it doesnt penetrate enough! i think it does. i think it WILL kill anything in Africa. Ive just never hunted Africa,so i was thinking on my first hunt i should take something that could make up for a shot that was a hair off,etc. I know placement is key. I would feel good hunting with a 4570 if i was living in Africa.

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