Finally shot 416 Rigby
Well guys awhile back I posted a thread where I bought two Ruger RSM's. one in 416 Rigby and one 375 H&H. Well yesterday while shooting my double I finally got around to shooting my Rigby 416. I had never shot one before and was a little worried about whether I could handle the recoil, as I really wanted to keep this gun. After shooting my 450/400 double I started with the 416. The recoil felt very close the the 450/400. Me being a weenie shot about 6 rounds before feeling it some. I know this not a gun you wanna spend much time on the bench with:knockedout: I really like the 416 and fell in love. With more practice I think I could ease into more shooting and like it even more. Is it normal to shoot ten rounds or less or is my weenie factor kicking in? You 416 guys chime in. In bolt guns for Africa I love the 375 H&H but this Rigby is getting my attention. My plan is to shoot enough to get it zeroed well then get my a$$ off the bench.
Heym, congrats on two very well made big bores, the R.S.M's.
With regards to the .416 firstly let me qualify.
I am no stranger to recoil.
I currently own 5 firearms at .375 or larger including .458 Lott, .500 N.E and a .500 wildcat.
Personally I would prefer to shoot any of my rifles than any .416 Rigby.
There is something about the speed of recoil with the Rigby that just doesn't agree with me.
Without a doubt the Lott, the .500 N.E and my .500 MDM all have noticably more recoil than any rigby, but to me I still prefer to shoot those than a .416.
Please understand that recoil is a subjective issue, perceived by different people in different manners and rifles vary in "felt-recoil" depending on a variety of factors, but generally speaking, at least for me the .416 Rigby just kicks far too fast for my liking and regular use.
The above is an opinion only.
It does have a little speed to it doesn't it...and a sharp crack too. Thanks for your opinion...I feel less weenie now:satisfied:
Never shot a 416 Rigby before I have played with the 458WM and I like it, not as much recoil as one would think but just not the range. Thou I like the 458 I'm still thinking 375 for all around gun.
I shoot a 416 rigby, i've only had it for just over a year now and i enjoy shooting it.
It is a bit stiff, but far from intolerable, i'm not a big guy and shooting off a bench doesnt always go down so well.
its all sighted in now, until the new scope arrives, but shooting off hand or from sticks or fork in a tree it really does not bother me at all.
I have not shot any other big calibers, have shot my friends 375 and that is an absolute pleasure to shoot.
have fun with it, i shot at a 44gal drum filled with water the other day and the impact lifted the drum about a foot and a half off the ground!
Thanks Pete. I know if I can handle it ok on the bench, I will do fine standing and with sticks. It does thump whatever it hits thats for sure. I used to shoot my old 458 WM but sold it. I like the 416 better so far. I have a couple of 375's as well. Those I'll hang on too.
Well I have shot one too and it is a thumper, no doubt about it. I don't think I can honestly shot more than 10 off before having to quit. It's quite the hammer tool :). It's one of those guns that has to be heavy and have a good recoil pad.
I hear a lot of people complain about Ruger's being muzzle heavy. The 416 Rigby in a Ruger 77 RSM works just fine. Your right, this one caliber you don't want in a rifle too light. I'll take the heavier Ruger any day for this caliber.
Hey Heym - I've had a .416 Rigby since 2006 and have shot it quite a lot. As Paul said, "recoil is subjective". I'm lucky I guess, I have never been overly sensitive to recoil. Part of the reason is knowing when to quit when your at the range, especially while shooting off the bench. !0 rounds is not abnormal. What you don't want to do is make it into a "ego" thing and shoot until you develop a "flinch". If your starting to lose your concentration because of the recoil, stop. My .416 is extremely accurate for a "big gun" and I really have a lot of confidence in it. I would have no hesitation in making it my all around DG/Plains game rifle if my shots were going to be limited to 200yds max.
Hey Buff.....that's my philosophy exactly. I think carefully zeroing the rifle my max per shooting session will be around 6-8 rounds that's it.
I think Paul has used the correct word.."speed" and this also goes to how one shoots. The rifle weight has no bearing on the actual 'push back' if that term makes it easier to understand than 'total energy of reaction to the forward thrust of the bullet'.
You probably understand 'work' and 'force'
Physical work requires force to be applied to an object, causing it to move...even accelerate and then decelerate through inadequate force or by something absorbing its eneagy on impact. or through friction.....Take throwing a ball for example..it goes from rest through acceleration to perhaps a constant velocity for an instant then 'zero' as the thrust it received from your body is dissipated through air friction then accelerating again through gravitational pull until finally coming again to rest.
Thats where a trajectory is created.
A lot of us know what happens if that flight is suddenly interrupted..Remember being 'branded' at school through a tennis ball hurled at you at close range hitting you...?...how it reduces in impact, the further you are from the same thrower.How it hurts and leaves a red mark if 'close'..?
For most people "mass (m) is the 'same' as weight, imprecise but ok for the purpose of general explanations involving it.
The potential (stationary or unreleased) energy of your cartridge at the moment of firing becomes kinetic or 'moving' energy. This is measured knowing mass and velocity (ke=1/2mass x (velocity squared)) The rifle mass acted upon by an applied force leads to aceleration and a velocity arises from that. Velocity is a constant speed which is achieved if distance is long enough to retard acceleration....to a point where a constant force is applied.For example if you give someone the 'bums rush' you accelerate them from zero to a fast walk and then once a 'working speed' is reached they mov forwards without accelerating...your stable application o force now moved his mass forward at a constant mass-speed...velocity.
For identical releases of energy through firing a bulet through an identical rile barrel , identical force is generated...all things being equal. The nature of the load (eg whether Rigby 416 or Ruger, whether 458 Lott or magnum for example) itself has an acceleraton coefficient...fast burnig or slower burning....an that replicates itself in the accelerating nature of the recoil.
The heavier the rifle, the slower the acceleration. 'v'(velocity) squared=u (initial velocity)squared plus 2x 'a' (acceleration)x 's' (distance travelled) and in the corresponding formular 'half 'm' x 'v' squared' you can see mass being introduced along with velocity. Energy and force are related, mass and acceleration are related (f=m x a, devised Newton.)
The lighter the rifle the greater its acceleration (v=u+ a xt (time)and resulting velocity terminating in force (f=mxa) into your stationary shoulder. Setting aside such variables as the compression rate and recovery of the timber in the stock, which may retard the acceleration (eg as an airbag or seatbelt or controlled crush rate car panels do) and change some energy, from the recoil, into heat or even sound. The lighter rifle has exactly the same energy, followin he accleration nature of the bullet) to dissipate as the heavy rifle but you experience (depending also on the rate of power burning) a[certain rapidity of impact.
Maybe this imperfect example might ssist...imagine the difference between someone hitting a 20 pound sledgehammer your shoulder from an inch away and them hitting you the same energy in the same place with the heel of their palm 'karate open hand style'...the second will result in a far greater FEELING of impact because it is trying to make your shoulder and all attached to it(vectorially) accelerate at the same rate. The sledge hammer is acting with much lower acceleraion in dissipating the same force. A good recoil pad either uses scientifically devised aircells..which compress and create heat thus dissipating energy stopping it reaching your shoulder or a solid well designed pad which absorbes and then releases the enery in a more controlled motion than solid timber to shoulder.
I hop that is a reasonable and understandable clarification of the recoil mysteries.
I think this subject of recoil has long been to to death on forums as almost a paranoia-sect.If you have a 4 tons rapidly heading straight at you to stamp you into the planet, you will not be worrying about recoil, or feeling it. You will be in a self preservation head space. If that animal hits you, you will not feel anything like you imagine you will do...shock will numb you as will endorphin.
It's those casual long shots which allow recoil to be noticed and whilst I have never read it in any forum..the reason prone shooting (lying down/bench shooting) makes the recoil feel worse for the same enercy dissipation is because you are not as free to moved and spread the absorbtion into your body to dissipate it in a controlled fashion, You are meeting the accelerating stock quite rigidly without even the 'cushioning' of that tapered muscle which meets your clavicle. Voila!
Again, OH BROTHER!! You get kicked off the rocket scientist forum?!?!
Originally Posted by Socrates
Couldn't you get this explanation...Strike a light!!...I took it step by step!...As a wise man of letters once said "Good Grief", Sestoppleman...I know you love me, you just can't say the words.
By the way I answered your 'pseudo intellectual' comment already...but here...why 'kicked off' my old china?....Don't you realise how profoundly science is involved in firearms at the Newton level...? I am preened however that you recognised the science of rockets being intimately involved and quite well explained by extrapolating (that means extending) my explanation into even larger projectiles.
The comments across forums and magazines wailing and railing against recoil... stretch form here to the moon (not 'actually' of course). I have given the first comprehensive answer I have ever seen and an explanation which will help many understand and accept it more readily.
Anyway, I am glad to see you stimulated into response...I hope it's not like Mark kicking sand into the hippo's face to get it to charge to certain death, I am not writing for any other purpose but to stimulate research and comprehension of this and that.
I hope tonight and forever more as penance for your lack of faith you'll hear ringing in your ears as you try to sleep "Kiss me to sleep Sergeant Major. tuck me in my little wooden bed. We all love you, Sergeant-Major,"..(I can't get pseudo intellectual to Rhyme, mea culpa, mea culpa)..hehehehe..Voila
Socrates, what your explanation of the physical mechanics of the laws of motion, and recoil energy, do not account for is for p鑽ceived recoil at the shoulder by an individual shooter.
Perception, in this case, is in the eye of the beholder ! (subjective).
The explanation of the laws of motion have little practical application for a shooter who is, for the first time, moving into larger calibers he may, or may not, have prior experience with.
For shooters moving into larger calibers for the first time, what is most important for them is to try and work out if they will be comfortable, and accurate/effective, with a large cartridge they have no prior experience with.
There are many variables that effect the level of perceived recoil by each individual shooter.
Some of these include ;
?ｷ Stock design
?ｷ Muzzle blast
?ｷ Stance style
?ｷ Firearm grip
?ｷ Rifle weight
?ｷ Cartridge design
?ｷ Load (velocity generated & projectile weight)
?ｷ Previous experience
?ｷ Powder type
A simple physics lecture on the laws of motion goes nowhere in helping someone decide if they may be better of investing in a .375 as opposed to going up to a .458 or .416
Personally, I believe the voodoo of recoil scares some shooters off cartridges which have a reputation for vicious recoil, thereby robbing that individual an opportunity of gleaning the wonderful benefits of some extremely effective cartridges we now have available to us.
I also believe that some shooters are utilizing cartridges that are way beyond their personal recoil tolerance levels, thereby affecting their proficiency with those particular firearms.
Somewhere in between lies the obvious happy medium, a point difficult to locate for someone who is for the first time entering the realm of big bore rifles.
Personally, I would like to see some kind of format available for shooters to be able to try before you buy? but can appreciate this scenario is just not practical.
Although the topic of recoil has been discussed intensively it is not until it is approached objectively that an effective resolution can be reached.
I think a lot of people avoid discussing recoil objectively through a fear that, admitting their tolerance level may be perceived by others as some kind of weakness.
On the other end of the scale are shooters who are reluctant to discuss recoil because their personal level of tolerance is way beyond what is generally accepted as normal and their integrity may be called into question.
I applaud the opening poster for his candid assessment of his .416 Rigby and raising the discussion so that others contemplating this move have food for thought, and this is not a direct attempt on my behalf to bag the .416
Thanks Paul....you are correct. All I was trying to say in this thread is that I am happy that my Ruger RSM in .416 is shootable for me. I will keep it in my collection and continue to master it. I wasn't applying for NASA LOL. Thanks for those who replied. When others take this step from their .375's etc, maybe they'll see too.
Originally Posted by Socrates
Hi Paul...embedded in my reply was the silent hope/possibility that getting a profound understanding of the mechanics of recoil, reading and re-reading it, might empower some more people to erase those perceptions. As an example, on my way to Goulburn one time some years ago I read the write up on the Boyes anti tank rifle. It made me nervous...and the size of the cartridge reinforced the rather frightening description of how short was the time people could use it. I even read ssomewhere that the recoil killed the user in some cases. The fact is that I didn't understand the science of the burning inside a large case nor that prone shooting is significantly more punishing than standing and shooting where the body is free to move,as is the barrel...all dissipating energy.
You can ride a horse and feel relaxed, but the horse doesn't. Your tension restricts its mind. An experienced observer can tell you you are too tense, pulling on the reins whilst kicking it forward (knowing nothing of cantering a horse on the spot)and you'll argue to corrugations out of a water tank defending your position...you incorrect posiiton. The same sort of factors apply to recoil...its important but has become obsessive perhaps in an hedonistic society is one explanation "please don't hurt me..."
The list you gave are all factors in the head scan of the enemy "that massive cartridge everyone is scared about' but as I see it...science opens one's mind. If you grasp what it's all about you can prepare your mind and body to accept the science. No company makes cartridges designed to kill the shooter.No capable and sensible person is lying on the ground for a shot at a 1500 pound buffalo ten metres away. What I wrote put science into the relentless recoil discussion and of the two or three fears (and one is the perception you mentioned) at least one can now be waved oodbye..'fear of the unknown" and its follower "experience of fear of the unknown" in a tensed body.
I can assure you that when you find the horse which in your first experience was bucking like crazy was only pig-rooting...a great deal of fear dissipates. I think that applies across the board. The guy with skinny arms fears the techo tatoo'd muscular guy who picks a fight with him but if fear is overcome that guy with the skinny arms can inflict staggering pain on the other bloke (and again fear is why people tattoo themselves in tribal fantasies..to scare off possible demons including his/her own.)
It then, like a ghi becomes a uniform in which more power is generated through mind control ..until someone flattens him and reality comes home to roost). I have been hit hard by pretty big men and felt some of it , but my easy going daughter can dead arm me every time with a punch from her thin arms and pianist's hands....Weighing probably 6 stone she decked a bloke who tried it on with her in an ice cream parlour when she was 16..she didn't think of fear, she just clocked him. The other daughter at 13 with one punch knocked out a 15 year old boy who had pulled a knife on my son...fear wasn't there to disable them, they just reacted.The body knows how..it is 'we' who get in its way!
My son was never a boy who got into fightsrather avoided them but when a older bloke had a go at him in a Mosman street one night and just wouldn't stop he broke the bloke's jaw with one punch and put him away as well...This isn't some 'brag' but just personal experience with how people don't disable themselves through fear and perception.It's very important. Musashi spoke of going into battle with no expectations of winning or losing but to do one's best with each situation...because fear can suck 60-80% of your energy and blind you to things happening around you.
So...in a sense that nutshell's my view on knowedge of the science assisting in the recoil issue. Of course it would be foolish of me not to agree with you that some people are not built to easily cope with that accelerating stock but by the same token....making a bridge of your self in your stance (such as widespread feet)kind of makes a self-fulfilling perception. Shooting is about relaxation....allowing the body to dissipate the recoil energy in stages using all of the body...relaxed, absorbent. The arm muscles can hold the rifle tightly enough into the shoulder to stop there being a sudden acceleration INTO the shoulder...and most I see seat the stock incorrectly. unfortunately the way some people place scopes puts their face in a posiiton to get punisnment. Using your face to stop rifle or shotgun movement is going to hurt.
The other arm can be used as a slight brace in the opposite direction. The firing hand ffrom the wrist forward should be completely flexible and the rifle will then follow a pattern of movement which doesn't loosen one's teeth... and make a yo-yo of ones cervical spine. What I am trying to say is that the body should become a apart of the shock absorbing extension of the whole rifle movement and with the science I clarified each person might(I hope) develop a new science appreciation within himself which makes his use of large calibres or a 12G conform to his body and conversely.
The first time I fired both barrels of a 12 gauge simultaneously it was accidental. I'd been warned about the pain it caused....but because I did it without intention there was no fear. As it happened without submitting myself to perception I realised straight way "that double barrel recoil stuff is all b/s!!"... I was 16 then an weighed about 9 stone. Fear and Perception see the mind and body trying to solve problems before they arise instead.
That's one reason why so many people do their best shooting or months at their first clay shoot...they follow instinct. Once the experts start tensing them up with do/don't do and worse, give different instructions one from the other they have periods of utter stagnation...they no longer move freely, they no longer istinctively calculate, they use someone's method and that tenses them...and how many move away from that anality to become experts...? I know a few.
Where I think we are meeting, Paul, is at the critical point of you list of perceptions...which do exist and do have the effects you said....and my reflecions on Newton's science which in bringing enlightment opens individuals entities to becoming less anal about the way they interact with the firearm and allow their body to understand and pare away unreasonable fears.. Does that clarify a bit more Paul..or become less seemingly head-on? Cheers
Socrates, I enjoyed your post, very interesting. Perception, is the mother of all evils, mind over matter.
An intellectual that cannot spell. You gotta love it.:loopy:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Hi, thanks...good someone enjoyed it, that makes it worthwhile communication. The greatest issue since WW11 by the way in my view is the perception that people and governments are fighting evil when they are actually creating it, using 'seekingpeace' to excuse invasion. I think we firearms owners have an extra responsibility to show a good public image to frightened citizens when our military are using firearms to kill innocent people by the hundreds of thousands.in 'collateral damage' I think the opoortunity should be grasped and pursued...doors don't always open, opportunities are often lost.
My daughter once said to me "why do you always argue with people Dad?"...I said "I don't" she said..."there you go again" and laughed!...I said "well my dear somethings are important enough to argue about" she said "they are not" (she's not argumentative you see LOL!!) I said 'they are' she said 'they are not dad,...you are wrong dad, wrong... just say "yes, you are right" and move on, everyone is happy and it doesn't matter a toss". Fair point I suppose.
Out of kindness and empathy I have tried to attend to a decrier here, with my occasionally perplexing sense of humour who accuses me of being an intelectual unable to spell....LOL!!...I might be out of touch does one spell "got to" as g-o-t-t-a....That Pig Latin...I knew well, Horatio...well once upon a time anyway.....One should always remember that protest is extremely important, in fact the life blood of democracy. Voila