Finally shot 416 Rigby
This is a discussion on Finally shot 416 Rigby within the .375 & Up forums, part of the HUNTING EQUIPMENT, FIREARMS & AMMUNITION category; Well, it's my old china back again...stalking me out of love you cannot express except through scorn. It's ok I ...
07-26-2013, 10:27 PM #21
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Well, it's my old china back again...stalking me out of love you cannot express except through
scorn. It's ok I know you are there.....Gee, all those hundreds of words mispelled...thanks for telling me.It could be so embarassing if other people read it...and worse if I spoiled a child's career if one was mislead through my actions. I'd never forgive myself.
Hey I know University was never your thing as you scorn intellectuals, but did you know that some of the worst spellers are University trained teachers....and people writing for university...? Isn't that curious?...what do you make of that? old China, old chap.
I learned something today...I have been mispelling 'got to" for years...Today an expert pulled me up and told me one should spell it "gotta"...see how one lives and learns s'estoppelman..? Now, should it be an 'intellectual' who/which or that 'cannot spell'..perhaps you can help me out, there I'd hate to see an error perpetuated.
Now listen s'estoppelman, I know you love me but whispering sweet nothings in my ear on this site isn't going to grease me up....I am over all that stuff...so how about a big kiss...smoooooocccchhhh"! there we go and let's just be friends again.
So you won't think I am not interested, do you have anything to contribute or are you just a long range sniper. You are always welcome to continue your significant contributions. Voila
07-26-2013, 10:53 PM #22
1. Hi Paul...embedded in my reply was the silent hope/possibility that getting a profound understanding of the mechanics of recoil, reading and re-reading it, might empower some more people to erase those perceptions. As an example, on my way to Goulburn one time some years ago I read the write up on the Boyes anti tank rifle. It made me nervous...and the size of the cartridge reinforced the rather frightening description of how short was the time people could use it. I even read ssomewhere that the recoil killed the user in some cases. The fact is that I didn't understand the science of the burning inside a large case nor that prone shooting is significantly more punishing than standing and shooting where the body is free to move,as is the barrel...all dissipating energy.
Socrates, I appreciate your endeavour to empower people with knowledge, never a bad thing, but I will re-iterate my personal belief that the knowledge and understanding of a generic law of motion such as Newtons has little PRACTICAL applicationto most shooters whome are trying to pre-empt their personal suitability and effectiveness with any given cartridge and the recoil it generates.
Newtons Law will be present in EVERY rifle, regardless of caliber, this will not change and is a factor not in control of any rifle shooter progressing to a larger, or smaller, caliber.
Understanding and acknowledging that every action has an equal and oposite reaction will not help "Bob" choose a .458 over a .500
Most shooters already know rifles recoil, and that recoil increases exponentially as one increases in bore size and energy/velocity produced and weather or not they understand how and why it happens may, or may not be of little consequence.
Hence my response listing a number of the contributing factors that DO have a practical, controllable, avoidable effect on recoil and that ARE variable.
Newtons Law, when all things are equal is not variable.
You can ride a horse and feel relaxed, but the horse doesn't. Your tension restricts its mind. An experienced observer can tell you you are too tense, pulling on the reins whilst kicking it forward (knowing nothing of cantering a horse on the spot)and you'll argue to corrugations out of a water tank defending your position...you incorrect posiiton. The same sort of factors apply to recoil...its important but has become obsessive perhaps in an hedonistic society is one explanation "please don't hurt me..."
Obsession with recoil, as you put it, is generally amongst the uninitiated and that is where we need to be most careful. As I mentioned in my previous response I believe some shooters are mentally discouraged from selecting certain cartridges through their perceived impression of legendary recoil and are therefore robbed of the tremendous advantages some of these cartridges can provide if used correctly.
The list you gave are all factors in the head scan of the enemy "that massive cartridge everyone is scared about' but as I see it...science opens one's mind. If you grasp what it's all about you can prepare your mind and body to accept the science. No company makes cartridges designed to kill the shooter.No capable and sensible person is lying on the ground for a shot at a 1500 pound buffalo ten metres away. What I wrote put science into the relentless recoil discussion and of the two or three fears (and one is the perception you mentioned) at least one can now be waved oodbye..'fear of the unknown" and its follower "experience of fear of the unknown" in a tensed body.
A porperly built stock in close keeping to the physical dimensions of the individual shooter fired from a firearm that does not produce an intollerable level of muzzle blast for that particular shooter whome has assumed a comfortable and controllable stance (an entire other subject) with a firm grip in the correct positions firing a cartridge of straight-walled design will go MUCH further in assisting the majority of rifle shooters coming to grips with heavy recoil than the assistance provided by having their minds opened to the science.
Today you meet that one incapable and insane person who has, to date, shot two buffalo whilst laying on the ground at point blank range in thick scrub with a .458 Lott to finish off the animals.
I can assure you that when you find the horse which in your first experience was bucking like crazy was only pig-rooting...a great deal of fear dissipates. I think that applies across the board. The guy with skinny arms fears the techo tatoo'd muscular guy who picks a fight with him but if fear is overcome that guy with the skinny arms can inflict staggering pain on the other bloke (and again fear is why people tattoo themselves in tribal fantasies..to scare off possible demons.)
In my own words I generally try to explain to most that familiarity with a certain cartridge will bring a certain level of comfort.
That is only true if the level of recoil generated by said cartridge is within the tolerance level of the shooter to begin with.
My personal case in point, no matter how much time I spend with certain cartridges i.e .300 & .340 Weatherby's, .416 Rigby etc, continued exposure will only lead to an ingrained flinch.
Just as your bucking horse analogy, some bronks just aint getting riden !
I find your generalisation of people with tatoos offensive.
Many people tatto for MANY different reasons.
To qualify, I personally have no tatoos.
It then, like a ghi becomes a uniform in which more power is generated through mind control ..until someone flattens him and reality comes home to roost). I have been hit hard by pretty big men and felt some of it , but my easy going daughter can dead arm me every time with a punch from her thin arms and pianist's hands....Weighing probably 6 stone she decked a bloke who tried it on with her in an ice cream parlour when she was 16..she didn't think of fear, she just clocked him. The other daughter at 13 with one punch knocked out a 15 year old boy who had pulled a knife on my son...fear wasn't there to disable them, they just reacted.The body knows how..it is 'we' who get in its way!
My son was never a boy who got ito fights but when a older bloke had a go at him in a Mosman street one night he broke the bloke's jaw with one punch and put him away as well...This isn't some 'brag' but just personal experience with how people don't disable themselves through fear and perception.It's very important. Musashi spoke of going into battle with no expectations of winning or losing but to do one's best with each situation...because fear can suck 60-80% of your energy and blind you to things happening around you.
So...in a sense that nutshell's my view on knowedge of the science assisting in the recoil issue. Of course it would be foolish of me not to agree with you that some people are not built to easily cope with that accelerating stock but by the same token....making a bridge of your self in your stance (such as widespread feet)kind of makes a self-fulfilling perception. Shooting is about relaxation....allowing the body to dissipate the recoil energy in stages using all of the body...relaxed, absorbent. The arm muscles can hold the rifle tightly enough into the shoulder to stop there being a sudden acceleration INTO the shoulder...and most I see seat the stock incorrectly. unfortunately the way some people place scopes puts their face in a posiiton to get punisnment. Using your face to stop rifle movement is going to hurt.
"So...in a sense that nutshellｴs my view on knowledge of the science in the recoil issue?"
I have two personal rifles.
1) Customed stocked .500 M.D.M ultra mag bolt-gun firing a .50 cal projectile of 450 gn weight at 2400 fps from an 8.5lb rifle
2) Customed stocked .500 N.E double rifle firing a projectile weight of 475gn at 2300 fps from a 10.5lb rifle
The 10.5lb double kicks CONSIDERABLY more in felt recoil to the 8.5lb .500 M.D.M
Apply the science to that.
Explain to me how my "knowledge and understanding" of Newtons Law will help me in comming to terms with the recoil from my .500 N.E.
The other arm can be used as a slight brace in the opposite direction. The firing hand ffrom the wrist forward should be completely flexible and the rifle will then follow a pattern of movement which doesn't loosen one's teeth... and make a yoyo of ones cervical spine. What I am trying to say is that the body should become a apart of the shock absorbing extension of the whole rifle movement and with the science I clarified each person might(I hope) develop a new science appreciation within himself which makes his use of large calibres or a 12G conform to his body and conversely.
The first time I fired both barrels of a 12 gauge simultaneously it was accidental. I'd been warned about the pain it caused....but because I did it without fear, without submitting myself to perception I realised straight way "that double barrel recoil stuff is all b/s!!"... I was 16 then an weighed about 9 stone.Fear and Perception see the mind and body trying to solve problems before they arise instead.
That's one reason why so many people do their best shooting or months at thsie first clay shoot...they follow instinct. Once the experts start tensing you up with do/don't do and worse, give different instructions one from the other you have periods of utter stagnation...you longer move freely, you no longer istinctively calculate, you use someone's method and that tenses you...and how many move away from that anality to become experts...? know a few.
Where I think we are meeting, Paul, is at the critical point of you list of perceptions...which do exist and do have the effects you said....and my reflecions on Newton's science which in bringing enlightment opens individuals entities to becoming less anal about the way they interact with the firearm and allow their body to understand and pare away unreasonable fears.. Does that clarify a bit more Paul..or become less seemingly head-on? Cheers
No need for clarification, at least not on my part. If you re-read some of your own writings in this response you will see you yourself have also listed fear, tension on grip, stance, expereinceas REAL factors affecting perceived recoil.
Having the knowledge of how and why two identical .458ｴs of the same manufacturer, firing the same load will react according to Newtons law is redundant.
Knowing that one of those .458ｴs can be tamed with a number of, or all of combined, the factors listed may be more practical and usable to users of these forums.
07-27-2013, 12:21 AM #23
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HI Paul...good to see you getting involved in my conversation/monologue...
I think it's quite an important discussion because we are examining reality and perception which affect millions of people and others can read it and perhaps be influenced to research. Other hunting sports have their particular interations between person and tool...game fishing for example...an educated fisherman who understands the science will be able to best use/adapt the practical aspects the perhaps less academic Professional is teaching him or her
At the outset I didn't consider every possible circumstance a man might find himself in shooting, however a 500N isn't the rifle one would expect to lie on the ground and shoot..but then as 'they' say, make a case and someone will have an exemption. The 500 is pretty flat, out to 150M and probably most effective out to 75. I actually didn't run as many scenarios through my head as lying down to take a wounded animal in scrub. In general terms however my suggestion was that with DG at close quarters you will be most likely to be shooting prone for several reasons and that the rigid nature of the lying-positon as well as the placement on shoulder is far more resisting of recoil than when taking a standing shot.It would be intersting to see the results of a man hanging by his knees and of course upside down, firing a 600N and plotting the effects of recoil as he spins around the branch. I suspect that's not likely to occur.
If a person doesn't learn more about recoil from understanding acceleration then there's not much further to go with it...it becomes like politics, talk all day and convince no one. It is however the critical point and when understanding the aspects of acceleration mass and velocity, gravitational pull and environmental resistance knowledge becomes 'zen'...I can't and don't want to try to foist an explosives belief onto you or anyone else...the information is provided and it will make a difference to the outlook or many and close the gaps for others. Some will also reject it and persevere forward, perhaps with their brains already doing the calculations and understanding without identifying. Some will go on objectig until their resistance fades away and rethink it all.
As for tattoos I regard them as a social curse, it doen't bother me that anyone chooses to find that opinion offensive. Hunters write almost to a last man how ugly Cape Buffalo are...for me they are quite beautiful..and certainly vastly more beautiful than a tattood bikie dealing death and cocaine or ice....I regard him as a sect member as of less value than the herd Buffalo. I'd mourn the death of a Buffalo killed for its head far more profundly than the shooting of the sergeant at arms of a bikie gang.The Buffalo is of no menace to the advancement of decent society, the other is unquestionably a menace...and he identifies himself so with tattoos and colours.The every day tattoo job for me, just says the person has some reason to want to make themselves look uglier or more threatening or more loving "Love me mum" . "Ma" "Runaround Sue". I don't find tatto'd women any more attractive than were they not and I am more cautions of them and with good reason.
Moving onto the other. The principles I wrote of are inviolate. There are, nevertheless, other factors, powder compression, burn rate, case architecture, differences in the case necking, barrel length ...where there may be a node along it or at the muzzle, projectile diameter along with rifle twist depth and ratio, ambient environment and perception. That ignores muzzle brakes.The architecture of the barrel will have an impact on recoil as vectors cause it to twist and to rise...both of which reduce the recoil at shoulder point.
It is inviolate that identical situations other than mass of the firearm will see a lighter firearm accelerate faster than a heavier firearm....and that in the same body structure will have a different impact from that heavier weapon identical other than by weight to the lighter weapon
given what I have said before that. How any indvidual perceives that or reacts to it may depend on how he shoulders the arm,how he holds it, how flexible he is.
On the basis of present belief in physics and applied mechanics that is so...however I say on present knowledge as there are issues thses days raies about our most basic premises...for example whether the speed of light is the limiting speed, whether black holes are the result of light being 'sucked in' faster than the speed of light and so forth. I thikk we will all unconscously adapt if not conciously to our reactions and stance between say a .22 and a 243.
The lesser recoil of some cartridges (eg 416 Rigby) compared to others (say the 416REM) is generally said to do with the nature of the powder burn in the larger case. That's only one of the factors but it's one accepted.
Your list of perceptions I hadn't mentioned really. They are true by and large and I tried to indicate that with my story about the Boyes rifle description size and cartridge. I said also I do not get overly concerned about recoil simply because of my experience at age 16 and I think that support your perception statements.
07-27-2013, 11:21 AM #24
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Paul is correct, a proper fitting rifle customized to your physical dimensions goes a long ways towards reducing felt recoil.
08-02-2013, 05:07 AM #25
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Ref. PaulT :
- Stock design <----
- Rifle weight
The most important , this is my opinion, is the stock design.
Long time ago I had owned a Tikka 690 cal .338WM ... I was afraid to shot with this gun, my REM 700 .375 H&H or my Parker Hale .458WM were "soft" comparatively. I thing the 690's stock was too thin , the section too small and the length of pull so.
I own now 2 Winch 70 Safari Express (.375H&H and .416RM) for me .. perfect, for me ... (Pachmayr Decelerator .. length of pull : perfect !!! for my arms !!)
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