Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27

This has already been addressed, but... .458 Win Mag as a Dangerous 5 rifle?

This is a discussion on This has already been addressed, but... .458 Win Mag as a Dangerous 5 rifle? within the .375 & Up forums, part of the HUNTING EQUIPMENT, FIREARMS & AMMUNITION category; I have had a thread similar to this before, but would like to present it again for various reasons. Thoughts ...

  1. #1
    BigBoreShooter777 is offline New Member
    Joined
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    9
    BigBoreShooter777 has no Articles
    BigBoreShooter777 has no Photos

    Default This has already been addressed, but... .458 Win Mag as a Dangerous 5 rifle?

    I have had a thread similar to this before, but would like to present it again for various reasons. Thoughts on the .458 Win Mag as an Elephant/Cape Buff/Dangerous 5 rifle? Wouldn't mind getting the caliber change kit for a Stevens 200, but dont want to waste my time if im gonna be bouncing bullets of an elephant. Thanks for the help.

    BBS777

  2. #2
    enysse's Avatar
    enysse is online now AH Ambassador
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    5,201

    Member of Northeast Wisconsin SCI chapter, Lifetime member of NRA,RMEF

    Hunted Namibia, South Africa (East Cape, Guateng and Limpopo)

    enysse has no Articles
    View enysse's Photos

    Default

    Just look at the ballistic chart, it has plenty of power. If you use solids on elephant you will be fine.

  3. #3
    aussie hunter steve is offline New Member
    Joined
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3
    aussie hunter steve has no Articles
    aussie hunter steve has no Photos

    Default

    Have you considered the .458 Lott?
    It can be quite a versatile round and is suitable for plains game also when shooting the Woodleigh 400gr PP at speeds approaching 2600fps. This bullet has a good ballisic coefficient.
    For Cape Buff a 550gr soft point will give more reliable performance than a 500gr soft point and the Lott is capable of launching it faster than the .458 Win can send a 500 grainer. Of course with soild's either cartridge is adequate.
    And .458 Win ammo can be shot in a rifle chambered for the Lott cartridge without issue.

  4. #4
    mikejones is offline AH Member
    Joined
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    45

    Hunted South Africa, Zambia, Botswana, USA

    mikejones has no Articles
    mikejones has no Photos

    Default

    i agree with Enysse...

  5. #5
    spike.t's Avatar
    spike.t is online now AH Legend
    Joined
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,570

    Member of sci int, basc

    Hunted zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigBoreShooter777 View Post
    I have had a thread similar to this before, but would like to present it again for various reasons. Thoughts on the .458 Win Mag as an Elephant/Cape Buff/Dangerous 5 rifle? Wouldn't mind getting the caliber change kit for a Stevens 200, but dont want to waste my time if im gonna be bouncing bullets of an elephant. Thanks for the help.

    BBS777
    .458 win will work fine. how does the calibre change kit work on this rifle? i wonder if this is going to be one of those dumb questions?..............

  6. #6
    Mike70560's Avatar
    Mike70560 is offline AH Fanatic
    Joined
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    798

    Member of NRA, DU, DSC

    Hunted Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania

    Default

    458 Winchester will work fine.

    Maybe somebody can explain this to me. Why is a 458 Winchester deemed to be underpowered because it shot a 510 grain bullet at around 1800 FPS but a 45-70 shooting a 500 grain bullet at 1500 FPS is the most lethal weapon on earth?

    BTW I would be far more concerned "converting" a Stevens rifle to a 458 Win and using it on Dangerous Game.

  7. #7
    spike.t's Avatar
    spike.t is online now AH Legend
    Joined
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,570

    Member of sci int, basc

    Hunted zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike70560 View Post
    458 Winchester will work fine.

    Maybe somebody can explain this to me. Why is a 458 Winchester deemed to be underpowered because it shot a 510 grain bullet at around 1800 FPS but a 45-70 shooting a 500 grain bullet at 1500 FPS is the most lethal weapon on earth?
    i wonder how long?

  8. #8
    mikejones is offline AH Member
    Joined
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    45

    Hunted South Africa, Zambia, Botswana, USA

    mikejones has no Articles
    mikejones has no Photos

    Default

    now getting interesting :-)

  9. #9
    Mike70560's Avatar
    Mike70560 is offline AH Fanatic
    Joined
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    798

    Member of NRA, DU, DSC

    Hunted Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania

    Default

    In my previous post I listed a velocity for the Win Mag from the old days. I actually have some I chrono'd.

    The new loads, especially handloads can easily reach 2150 FPS with a 500 grain bullet.

    Still prefer the Lott, but there is nothing wrong with the Win Mag.

  10. #10
    Norwegianwoods's Avatar
    Norwegianwoods is online now SILVER SUPPORTER
    Joined
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    998

    Hunted Norway, Sweden, England, South Africa

    Norwegianwoods has no Articles
    View Norwegianwoods's Photos

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike70560 View Post
    458 Winchester will work fine.

    Maybe somebody can explain this to me. Why is a 458 Winchester deemed to be underpowered because it shot a 510 grain bullet at around 1800 FPS but a 45-70 shooting a 500 grain bullet at 1500 FPS is the most lethal weapon on earth?

    BTW I would be far more concerned "converting" a Stevens rifle to a 458 Win and using it on Dangerous Game.
    I know that the 458 Winchester got the rumor of being really bad for the big 5.
    The main reason for this was that very much and maybe all of the factory ammo was with very soft bullets that did fine in lower speed, but totally broke apart at the 458 win speed giving very little penetration.

    Today you get factory ammo with bullets of much better quality and when using that ammo or reload your own with high quality bullets, the 458 win will do a good job on the big 5.

  11. #11
    spike.t's Avatar
    spike.t is online now AH Legend
    Joined
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,570

    Member of sci int, basc

    Hunted zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england

    Default

    they werent going fast enough to break up, the problem was the powder compacting and causing fluctuating velocities that were way below what they were supposed to be, this led to very poor penetration , sometimes of only a few inches.

  12. #12
    Mike70560's Avatar
    Mike70560 is offline AH Fanatic
    Joined
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    798

    Member of NRA, DU, DSC

    Hunted Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spike.t View Post
    they werent going fast enough to break up, the problem was the powder compacting and causing fluctuating velocities that were way below what they were supposed to be, this led to very poor penetration , sometimes of only a few inches.

    Spike,

    Agree with you 100 percent. Everything I have read has always pointed to the powder problem, never a bullet problem. The Win Mag was originally loaded with ball powder that would/could cake and give the extremely low velocities you are speaking about.

    I was also being facetious and flippant about the 45-70 and the 458. The former is a powder puff, the latter a dangerous game cartridge.

  13. #13
    Wheels's Avatar
    Wheels is online now GOLD SUPPORTER
    Joined
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    742

    Hunted Zimbabwe, Namibia, South Africa, Tanzania

    Wheels has no Articles
    View Wheels's Photos

    Default

    In 1967 my father bought a Browning 458 win mag to use instead of his 375 as it was the new hot large caliber gun of the day. I remember seeing him put two softs (Winchester factory ammo) into the top of the heart/lower lung area of an elephant. The elephant went two to three miles, crossed the Ruaha river and died apx 400 yards into the national park. (We didn't see the dead elephant but the vultures were flooding in) The sad thing is we could have recovered the elephant if it had been shot a year or two before since Ruaha only became a park in 67. The ivory was apx. 80 lbs. He always thought the elephant would have been dead within 400 yards if he has shot it in the same location with a 30/06.

    My father had a few other issues with the 458 while useing softs on buffalo. The lead would seperate, break up, you would have cratering, a buffalo bone would deflect the bullet, etc. A soft point would never make it to the skin on the offside of a buffalo chest. He tried some British ammo (Kynoch I think was the only other kind available locally) and was still not happy with the results. At the time we didn't know about the bad publicity that the 458 was picking up since we were isolated and communication wasn't that good back then. He quit useing the 458 and went back to the 375.

    I am not sure if it was the 458 or the ammo but whichever it was it didn't work back then. Things have probably improved but I will always be prejudiced against the round.

  14. #14
    sestoppelman's Avatar
    sestoppelman is online now SILVER SUPPORTER
    Joined
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,208

    Member of NRA, NA Hunt Club

    Hunted Tanzania, Botswana, Zimbabwe (2), Namibia, South Africa

    Default

    Bad bullets are bad bullets regardless the caliber or cartridge. If the .458 Win aint a DG round then nothing else is either. With modern bullets and powder its better than ever.

  15. #15
    spike.t's Avatar
    spike.t is online now AH Legend
    Joined
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,570

    Member of sci int, basc

    Hunted zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england

    Default

    dont know about the softs only the problems with the early ammo loaded with solids usually being used on elephant. a friend who is a ph ended up lying on his back under an elephant after the 458 solid only penetrated a few inches into the skull on a frontal shot. luckily the ele didnt know where he had gone and took off, but he said it seemed like a long time when he was lying there under it......he was okay apart from some bruises . he then got a .450 ackley .

    i dont think kynoch ever loaded the .458 win, as it was designed to replace the british big bores that kynoch was stopping loading ammo for as it wound down its ammunition manufacturing.

  16. #16
    spike.t's Avatar
    spike.t is online now AH Legend
    Joined
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,570

    Member of sci int, basc

    Hunted zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sestoppelman View Post
    Bad bullets are bad bullets regardless the caliber or cartridge. If the .458 Win aint a DG round then nothing else is either. With modern bullets and powder its better than ever.
    yup

  17. #17
    Mike70560's Avatar
    Mike70560 is offline AH Fanatic
    Joined
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    798

    Member of NRA, DU, DSC

    Hunted Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania

    Default

    I remember seeing him put two softs (Winchester factory ammo) into the top of the heart/lower lung area of an elephant.
    Another good reason IMO to never hunt elephant with softs, only solids.

    And yes the bullets of yesterday were not that good compared to today's, and that goes for all calibers and cartridges, not just the 458.

  18. #18
    Wheels's Avatar
    Wheels is online now GOLD SUPPORTER
    Joined
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    742

    Hunted Zimbabwe, Namibia, South Africa, Tanzania

    Wheels has no Articles
    View Wheels's Photos

    Default

    Spike.t

    You may be right that Kynoch never loaded 458 win mag. back then. I do remember Dad useing 458 ammo other than Winchester and still having problems. Kynoch was available in other calibers at the time and we used it.

  19. #19
    Wheels's Avatar
    Wheels is online now GOLD SUPPORTER
    Joined
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    742

    Hunted Zimbabwe, Namibia, South Africa, Tanzania

    Wheels has no Articles
    View Wheels's Photos

    Default

    Spike.t

    I just went to the Kynoch website and they show 458 win mag ammo. They may not have had it back in the 60's though.

  20. #20
    Wheels's Avatar
    Wheels is online now GOLD SUPPORTER
    Joined
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    742

    Hunted Zimbabwe, Namibia, South Africa, Tanzania

    Wheels has no Articles
    View Wheels's Photos

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike70560 View Post
    Another good reason IMO to never hunt elephant with softs, only solids.

    And yes the bullets of yesterday were not that good compared to today's, and that goes for all calibers and cartridges, not just the 458.
    Back then softs were advertised for chest shots on elephant/buffalo. Solids for the head. I wish he had used solids on the shot......those tusks would probably be in my office right now.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. 45-70 for dangerous game?
    By RickB in forum .375 & Up
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 06-12-2013, 03:07 AM
  2. Dangerous Game RIFLE
    By BARTFRNCS in forum .375 & Up
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 06-11-2013, 10:13 AM
  3. Bolt action rifle for dangerous game!
    By Paul newhouse in forum Hunting Africa
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 08-28-2011, 12:22 PM
  4. Dangerous loads for Dangerous Game (??)
    By Gloucester in forum Reloading
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-26-2009, 05:06 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •